Thanks for the feedback (you and trex..)!

Yes, I have noticed that variation in myself, too. Case in point, today was slower than Saturday. I didn't do a USRPT set...but, I clearly would not have been able to hold 1:40 for very many reps today (1:45 would have been more apropos today).

I sorta mentally adjusted to the 1:43-ish pace....but, this was my first time to do 30x100 (ever)...so, I just wasn't sure how I was going to feel around 22 reps AND with only :20 rest. So, I played the pace a little conservative...apparently TOO much so. I'll get a better feel for it with a little more practice. I suppose its a lot like strength training...it takes a few attempts to find out what pace (weight) is required to fail at the "right" point. From what I've read, I should be "looking to fail" around the 15 rep mark...for the first time (rather than 27 as happened above).

If nothing more, it seems to be good practice at managing RPE (particularly that balance between moderate and too hard), which is something that I don't seem to have a good sense of in the water.

Trex...yes, I knew I was SUPPOSED to fail. and all rest intervals were exactly :20 (I setup the workout on my 920, with a :20 RI). As I said above, I just wasn't sure how quickly I would or wouldn't fade. Even if I didn't get the workout exactly right....If nothing else, it was a bit of a confidence boost going into my A-race this coming Sunday...as I'd never swum THAT fast (1:43), THAT much (2900 scy), on THAT little rest.

I just want to better my Oly swim from 3 weeks ago (31:00)...this one should be wetsuit legal, so there's that. But, I'd really like to do better even "wetsuit adjusted". Hell...if I can just swim in a straight line, that should take 2 minutes off. :-)

There are a lot of sighting drills around. They'd probably help you more in the short turnaround you've set for yourself.
Try swimming eyes shut for a few strokes, and also sighting in the pool trying to pick a spot or three to pick out each time you lift your head. These aren't bad to incorporate during aerobic sets.

Thanks. Yes, I've been doing some, and I've been going to the lake every Sunday for the last 6 weeks, where there is a buoy-marked 450m course. I have a swim coach, and he says I have a decent "sighting stroke". But, that doesn't help if you forget to look. I tend to drift left (to my breathing side), but this last Sunday was a marked improvement...I swam straighter, and remembered to sight more frequently, and thus actually rounded the corner buoys within a body length. Just gotta stay focused on race day.

Also my OW pace on Sunday was much more "similar" to my pool pace. I felt more relaxed and balanced, and my stroke rate was more controlled.

Until Michael Andrew has some really amazing results, I'm not buying into it (I'm a swim coach). Yes, Andrew is a very talented swimmer. But he has yet to really break through on the international swimming scene.

what??? Look I can understand the skepticism but Andrew is possibly the best swimmer in the world under the age of 20.

21.7 in the 50, 1:59.1 in the 200 IM -> the fastest swimmer ever (I am guessing) to break 2:00 in the 200 IM ( George Bovell maybe?!?!)

(fastest swimmer claim based off of 50M time)

Tom,

PM me and we can set up some time to talk.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

If you are a swim coach, then you might want to learn the history of coaching in the sport a little better. Dave Salo has been advocating a race pace approach to training long before USRPT. He was writing about it in swimming world in the early 1980s. And take a look at the work of Sam Freas too. There’s never just one successful way to train. But current swimming orthodoxy is missing out on some ways to improve athletes.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I think it's a mistake to either buy into or discount a method of set construction based off of the performance of a single person.

My take is that it's a tool in the toolbox, sometimes that type of set for a few weeks works wonders, and the number of weeks varies widely. Not all the time, but some of the time it is.

For a good chunk of people I see at the pool putting in aimless yards - a little laser focus on times would be a good change.

Yeah, and there's some sense he's stagnated, and I've heard rumors he's changed his training away from USRPT. So...we'll see.

Did you not follow the FINA Junior World Championships? The kid swam Junior World Record times in the 50 back, 50 fly, and 50 free.....all in the same session! He's currently ranked 11th, 7th, and 9th in the world in those three events. In a ~30 minute span of time, he displayed more raw speed than the reigning Olympic gold medal winners in the 100 free and 100 back could muster all year. Not bad for an 18 year old kid. No, he's not Phelps at 18. But nobody's been close to Phelps at 18 since Phelps was 18. Andrew has as much talent at 18 as any US male swimmer since Phelps, other than, perhaps, Caeleb Dressel.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

(Quote) "The thing with a swim time trial is they are a lot more variable than we like to think. I swim a 3000 straight every Tuesday and have ranged from 40:30 to 42:07 the last month."(Quote)

What length pool or is your 3000 in OW???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

SCM, no warmup and I didn't say it was all freestyle...

Sooooo, was it 15 x 200 IM or??? You can't just leave me hanging...:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Ha no freaking way! I don't think anyone who considers themselves a triathlete could do a 3000m IM in 40:30. (I went 40:00 yesterday).

Since you asked:

is is essentially 12 x 250's where the last 25 of each 250 is stroke. But I do back twice instead of breaststroke. So 8 laps of back, and 4 of and fly total. IN the middle of the set I am doing the freestyle at about 1:18 per 100 on a good day...

(ironic: We are discussing a 3000 straight in a USRPT thread)

No breaststroke??? The horror...I actually kind of like swimming breast but man, it takes SO much energy to swim that stroke with any speed whatsoever. Getting my hands/forearms out over the water is a pretty big effort, plus you have to kick really hard. I really like the feeling of getting way up there with the arms though, imagining myself to be Adam Peaty. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

you don't need to get your arms/hands out of the water on recovery to do breaststroke...

To be more precise, I'm not getting them ALL the way out of the water but rather "out over the water", i.e. skimming over the surface of the water; the "wave" breaststroke, which is what most of the fast breast guys/girls do. The higher I ride in the water on my recovery, the faster I go...:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I couldn't decide whether to start a new thread or continue to add on to this one. I guess I'm piling on...

I did a block of USRPT back in November/December, and it worked really well. In 6 weeks I went from 20x100 @1:43/100scy to 1:34/100scy for the same set. At that point, I was swimming 5x per week (2-3 USRPT sets and 1-2 drill sets)...and, mostly JUST swimming. However, due to an injury I had to take Jan/Feb completely off (no SBR at all).

I started back up in March, and did more USRPT sets. I was able to do USRPT sets 4x per week, and make gains in almost every set. I made good gains through May, while cycling/run volume was still pretty low. But, fast forward to today where I'm in the middle of a balanced build, and the cycling/run fatigue is clearly impacting my swim on some days (Mondays---after the long bike/brick on Sat....Wed-after FTP intervals). I'm making good gains on the bike/run, but I'm struggling a bit on the swim---at least on days where I've got excess bike/run fatigue to deal with.

Case in point: On Friday, I did a USRPT set of 75s. The plan was to do the 25x75 set @ 1:36/100scy pace (coming in at 1:12). Frankly, for the first several I was struggling to go that "slow", and I came in at 1:08-1:10 (1:30 pace - 1:34 pace), etc. I didn't slow down to the correct pace until #6. Today, I only managed 3 reps at the 1:12 pace---Everything else was slower. I bailed on the workout after #12---since I just couldn't keep it together.

Looking back at my logs, it seems I have good USRPT sets when my overall TSB is around -20. Once it gets near -30, I seem to have bad swim days. So, clearly I need to plan my USRPT swims on days that are more well rested. But, in the context of a balanced build block, I'm not going to be "rested" all the time. Also, I'm not completely predictable on when days will go well or poorly. So, I'm looking for strategies for how to respond to (and manage) the effects of fatigue---on the swim.

What is the right reaction to a bad day in the water on a planned USRPT day? I've been operating under the "never swim slow or practice poor technique" philosophy. So, when its not going right, I bail. Would I have been better to change the focus, but still get in the volume?

Would it be better to set target USRPT paces that allow me to complete them when I'm in these more fatigued states? For example, today I think I could have completed the 30x75scy set, if I'd backed the target time down to 1:15 (1:38-1:40/100 pace). But, thus far...I've always assumed that going slower only reinforces going slower---so, I don't do that.

I can always tell how the day is going to go by my warmup pace. Not that I try to swim the warmup fast---I try and go easy. But, if I tag the wall comfortably and see 1:38ish for the opening 100scy...then its going to be a good day. Today, I tagged the wall at 1:44---and it felt "harder". My subsequent drill sets were similarly slower than normal (about the same 6-second delta).

If I'd been on the bike or on the run, I'd probably just have changed the focus---drop any intensity and just do a steady-state type of workout.

These are the options I consider:

1. Shorten the repeat distance. If I came in intending to do 100s at mile race pace, but find myself failing early, I'll go to 75's at the same pace after the first fail. May even go to 50's after a second fail. Or I may pre-adjust the distance before starting the set if warmup feels crappy.
2. If my legs just aren't there from the get-go from recent hard running/biking; I'll throw in a pull buoy and go long-and-strong.
3. I may do drills and/or work on off strokes. 25's with lots of rest.
4. If it all feels like junk, I'll pack it in early and go home.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Hows Michael Andrew doing in 200s of stroke, 400IM, 4FR......let me know. Oh, I think I know that answer, the kid was a local to us and we watched him closely at local meets since he moved to Lawrence, KS, for the last several years. :)
50s is his prime, USRPT is good for that. Yeah, there is 100IM I know, 100BR, 100FL lately and some 100FR. But mostly 50s.
No single extreme side of the pendulum will yield optimum results long term. Just look at Dressel/Troy combo and their joint work. It has all elements in it. Dude still does 20x400IM sets.
It is good to do USRPT type training at the appropriate times of the season. It is good to have that element in any program.
However, have not been convinced still that it produces distance swimmers if relied on solely . Actually, I know it does not. I don't speculate. I study statistics. :)
I am very fond of Michael and his family. Peter and I have collaborated, exchanged thoughts and ideas some time back. Even done some clinics for my swimmers together. He has had my kids in his pool for clinics.

Is it really fair to say USRPT is only good for 50's because MA isn't that good at the stroke 200's or the 400? If he doesn't do any USRPT work for the 400 free, how is his lack of performance in that race an indictment of the training methodology? Clearly, he's chose to focus on the shorter events. FWIW, he went best times in the 100 fly and 100 breast this weekend, with the strong back-halves he's heretofore been missing and which people previously pointed at as a shortcoming of his training. We'll see how he stands up to everybody's best shot at Nationals in a few weeks, but, as of right now, He's in the top 2 in the US rankings in the fifty free and those two 100's. I'll be shocked if he doesn't make the Pan-Pacs roster in at least one of those 100's.

I won't argue that USPRT is a better way to get fast at distance swimming than going 40k yards + a week. But, if you only have ~60 minutes, 4-5 times a week, you can get pretty far with a consistent application of USRPT. I had a huge-for-me 1000 free at USMS Spring Nationals, after 8 months of just ~12k yards/week, but doing much of that 12k as USRPT sets of 100's, 125's, and 150's.

For the triathlete who has a limited amount of time to devote to swim training, you could do a helluva lot worse.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I agree with you completely. That is the best use of time for triathletes that are time constrained and know how to swim well. For your level that is a very efficient use of time and high quality 12k per week.
I used MA only as he is the most prominent and successful USRPT swimmer that I know. I am certain that he will be on Pan-Pacs team. We will all be rooting for him.
Keep crushing it. Awesome to see folks swimming USMS Champs.

You’re experiencing what I’ve seen with hundreds of triathletes over the last 5 years. It is what brought me to the conclusion that the majority of triathletes are wildly over-trained. If you can’t make an adaption or are actually going backwards in one of the 3 sports you are training, then you are doing too much. If you are still carrying that much fatigue into the next workout then your body hasn’t recovered enough to realize an adaption.

The gains you were experiencing are in-line with what I see with the athletes I coach. We’ve changed the program up considerably since I originally started to talk about race pace training.

If you aren’t making the pace on a given workout, just do the remainder of it where you make the interval and keep it aerobic instead of hitting the goal pace. The lower level aerobic activity will help with the recovery. Also, throw in some kicking. It can help clear the fatigue in your legs.

Don’t practice going slower. If you can’t make the pace that you had been making or are going backwards then it’s time to take a hard look at your bike/run training. If you are off by 6 seconds/100 that’s the equivalent of about 20+ seconds a mile pace.

A daily descend set at the end of warm up can tell you a lot about you’re level of fatigue.

Hope this helps and if you have any other questions, let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Thanks, Tim.

Yep, today (well really, Saturday) was definitely a screw up. Last week, I had a similar issue on Monday---which I attributed to doing my long ride on Sunday, instead of my normal Saturday routine. Thus I only had about 16 hours of recovery from that Brick before swimming.

This week I moved the Brick back to Saturday in response---expecting that I'd be fine with 40 hours or so between the brick and swim---I might have been, if I'd followed the prescription.

However, this week, I chose to screw things up in a different way----I felt really good on Saturday, and rode harder than planned. Saturday's brick was supposed to be 145TSS combined, but I ended up with 205. I didn't really worry about it, because I thought I had plenty of time to recover. I also didn't really think I was pushing all that much harder. ...lesson learned...again.

<<<trust and follow the plan>>>
<<<trust and follow the plan>>>
<<<trust and follow the plan>>>




Ok. So on the rare bad day, swim slower, but shorten the rest interval? Eg, target was 75s at 1:12 (1:36 pace) with 20s rest (on a leave interval of 1:32). If I cut the rest in half, and slowed the pace, that would be 1:22 per 75 with about 10 seconds rest (still leaving on the 1:32). Interestingly, that would be almost exactly my current CSS pace.

Welcome.

For the 75s, I would put it on 1:35 for a 1:12/hold pace. Don’t drive yourself crazy with being exact on the rest interval of 20 seconds. If you aren’t making it, then just do the rest of the 75s at 1:35. Make the interval. So if your pace drops to 1:20-1:25, that’s fine. Keep thinking about your stroke and relax. Take it easy.

And that’s the same protocol of you are having a good day and trying to push your pace forward. If you had moved your pace to 1:10/75 and missed one, sat it out then jumped back in and missed again, then do the rest of them easy. It’s your brain/body telling you that it has made all the adaptation it can from the workout. When you push past that all you are doing is ingraining sloppy, slower technique into your stroke.

Any other questions, let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com