Yep, where is Tom? :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

He will find the thread soon enough haha

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

You're just as guilty of turning everything into a disc brake flamewar as the people you complain about.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

True :)

Still hard to believe no Bike mfg has come out with a middle class priced disc brake bike with Etap for 2018. Oh well, keeps the money in the bank

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Hahahaha....ok

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Did you miss this gem BryanD?

Saw it and laughed. I may look forward to disc brakes but I still think electronic shifting is a luxury item.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I can think of nothing more appropos than the anti-electronic thread being derailed by the anti-disc debate.

Any reservations I might have had on disc brakes were finally dispelled in my last race; it was very wet & windy with 3 nasty descents on (carbon) rim brakes. Consequently my new Endurace SLX may have mechanical, but it has a very nice set of Reynolds disc brake wheels. I had the choice between the top SL model with Di2, or the base SLX model with the HM frame and Reynolds wheels; I figured electronic wasn't going to speed me up. Horses for courses.

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29 years and counting

You are drawing a false equivalence.
How is the difference between rim and disc brakes equivalent to that between mechanical and electronic shifting?

Brakes: Both are mechanical from lever to caliper. TO the best of my knowledge, both are similarly reliable in terms of actuator operation. No possibility of electrical or software issues.
Derailleurs: One is mechanical end to end, the other is electronic.

Brakes: Rim brakes are deemed to provide sufficient power and modulation by many. Disks offer superior wet weather reliability of effect and overcome the relatively poor braking performance of most full carbon rims at the cost of arguable impact on aesthetics, weight and aerodynamics.
Derailleurs: Mechanical and electronic derailleurs do the same thing in the same way. They move the chain between chainrings/sprockets using a deflection cage/sprockets. The potential benefits of electronic shifting are easier cable routing and cleaner bike setup, quicker and more precise gear changes, perhaps reduced maintenance.

Are you aware of any evidence, or even anecdotes, that either cable or hydraulic disk brakes are more likely to fail than rim brakes?

Are you aware of any evidence that electronic shifting is more likely to fail than mechanical? Unlike you, I'm not interested in anecdotes, although I have plenty of those for mechanical shifting failures.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

I have been in a similar situation to you so here is my take on this. I had the servo motor go out on my rear derailleur during a race. SRAM was unable to give me an explanation until they had received my old part after getting a warranty replacement from them. They cant really give you a definitive answer without having the part themselves to look at. So here is my opinion. You had an issue during Kona. Yes that is a big deal, and is an odd occurrence. You then got with SRAM and your shop to try and figure out the issue. No real answer was found or given for the situation and no steps were taken to fix the issue. (going ahead and getting warranty replacements and I don't know if you had any subsequent problems between Kona and Los Cabos during training.) You then go and toe the line for another race with the same exact drivetrain parts and not knowing if the problem you had in Kona had been fixed or fixed itself? So seems like a fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me kind on thing. I feel that the statement of two Ironman messed up by eTap is untrue. Yes, one was messed up by it, but the other was just as much on you for not completely fixing the problem.

Yep. Everyone will prioritise their needs and base kit choices on that.

For me, staying with mechanical shifting and having hydraulic disc brakes makes sense. I can descend faster and more safely in the wet with carbon rims and wider tyres; the operative words being safely & faster. It's highly debatable that electronic shifting will make me any faster. The only tangible benefit for me in respect of electronic, is multiple shifter locations on a TT bike; I can't argue with that.

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29 years and counting

Even with the warning from the OP It is going to take a lot of willpower to put off getting etap for the new IA. As of yesterday I now have it pretty much setup like I want with exception of the drivetrain and maybe a little fitting tweak here or there. I have to admit that the low end mechanical components are shifting very well albeit a little stiff being brand new. So nothing wrong with what is on there, but this will eat at me until I do the last upgrade.

I'm vaguely interested, but won't put any stock, in anecdotes.

Of course mechanical shifting can and does occur. I never said otherwise. What's your point?

I was attempting to point out the false equivalency that the quoted poster appeared to be drawing between electronic shifting and disc brakes. They suggested it was somehow inconsistent to advocate disc brakes but not electronic gearing. This was the point of my post and I believe that was clear. What's the point of yours?

Your post was asking if hydraulic brakes had more failures than mechanical. For that to prove that the comparison between mechanical and electronic shifting was invalid, it would imply that electronic shifting fails more often than mechanical. If hydraulic shifting is at least as reliable as mechanical (but "newer and different"), and electronic shifting is at least as reliable as mechanical (but "newer and different"), then drawing a comparison about irrational fear of either is valid. That's my point, and unless you believe mechanical shifting is more reliable than electronic, no, yours was not clear.

Certainly, someone could say "I'd rather have mechanical shifting and hydraulic brakes", but I'd roll my eyes if they said it was because electronic shifting wasn't reliable enough. Which was the original point.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

OK, so I'd like to know who has actual objective data on failure rates? I haven't seen anything in the public domain. Bike shops probably have a reasonable idea but I doubt any of them keep actual data. Undoubtedly selling electronic drivetrains is profitable for them as they are very expensive so it's not in their best interest to collect and disseminate such data unless it can prove electronic shifting is more reliable. Manufacturers undoubtedly have warranty claim data but you can be sure they aren't going to share it with us.

So asking for data is a red herring, unfortunately all we have are anecdotes.

I do know that on group rides about which I have direct knowledge, electronic shifting failures are more common than mechanical failures, even though a majority of the people on those rides still ride mechanical. I like the idea of electronic shifting but the failures I see on the road really give me pause.

I pointed out that with proper preventative maintenance, mechanical can be extremely reliable. So the counter argument is made that applies to electronic shifting as well. But one of the main arguments in favor of electronic is that it requires less maintenance. So what preventative maintenance will help reliability? Letting the battery run down isn't preventative maintenance, that's operator error. I can see periodically checking cable connections to make sure they're secure, what else is there? If you're talking chain and cassette wear, that's a red herring as that's the same for mechanical.

I like shiny new technology and would like to convert to electronic. But I also like to have exceptional reliability that's within my control and I prefer to spend money on things that provide actual speed benefit.

This thread has gone full Derp, you never go full Derp.

It is just another anecdote, but, if it helps, in 30 years of a lot riding, I have had zero mechanical shifting failures. Not a single one.

But, in the end, I think the failure rate is not the issue, the failure mode of electronic shifting is the far bigger issue, at least the one that concerns me.

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Regards,
J. Smith

To the two posts above I quoted...this is where I would like SRAM and Shimano clarify the issues that people are seeing.

I fully agree that mechanical is easy to understand and troubleshoot. If you have some whacked cable runs, worn housing, or ferrules that aren't fully seated in the cable stops then you can potentially have issues that cause a failure. In those cases, we don't blame Jagwire, we blame the user or the installer. The 4 possible causes suggested above, if it were the case to be the problem, shouldn't be any different. And there should be a user guide that is more commonly referenced for users to ensure periodically that an electronic system is set up properly...no different than we periodically check our cables and housings.

If indeed some, or most of these electronic failures we are seeing are due to actual failure of electronics, and not loose cable connections, poor wiring runs, or spraying too much water on certain parts without periodically checking on them afterwards, then sure...electronic can have some failure points outside user control. But really no different than how SRAM was having road paddle shifters suddenly snap off. I should know...it happened to me twice.

Yes, agreed about the rate of failure.

However, the failure modes of electronic shifting is, unfortunately, another issue entirely.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Totally agree. Sort of reminds be back in the late 70's when GM switched their distributor from mechanical points and rotor to HEI. I thought, holy crap, how the heck do I work on this now? I'm not an electronic engineer. Guess what? This new electronic distributor completely blew away the older mechanical one.

Fast forward to today. Deja vu all over again. Don't fight the progress. Embrace it.

Yes, but what is interesting is that, for piston-engined aircraft (where failure modes are VERY important), the vast majority of them still have all mechanical ignition systems, and dual redundant systems at that. Dual plugs, dual magnetos, dual everything. All mechanical.

It is not about fighting progress, it is more about the right product for the situation. Yes, of course, electronic works better. Except when it stops working. Then it is another issue entirely.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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