I am amazed that this conversation is taking place. A few years ago nobody was bringing up kick timing and rarely mentioning kick frequency or beat.
Having been instructing adults on kick timing and general swimming for a number of years, I am going to offer some general thoughts in no particular order.
- First, a 6 beat kick does not take 3x the energy of a 2 beat kick. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
- 2,4 or 6 beat kick should all have the same underlying pattern of one dominant kick timed roughly to the powerful finish of the same side pull. Opposite side entry timing brings something else to the mix, probably to be avoided.
- There is a correct kick timing, but no one correct kick rhythm. Answer is, it depends. Effort, duration, water conditions, stroke rate and athlete body type can all play a part in the moment to moment (ideally autonomous) decisions regarding proper kick rhythm. All the while the proper timing plays its' deep bass undertones.
- Kids (and Ken Lehner) pick up kick timing fairly naturally, while adults, much less so. Sorta like learning a foreign language. Adults generally need a progression of skills and drills to enlarge the aquatic vocabulary, before they "get" the feel of proper timing. There is an unmistakable 'propulsive boost' when kick timing is done right.
- Kick timing is fundamental to body position. Head position and gimmicks such as 'pressing the buoy' can fine tune body position, but you will not have good body position until you have both a well formed and properly timed kick. Well formed is with pointed feet, driven from the hips and a proper balance of knee tension and flexion.
How much you kick is a red herring. HOW you kick and WHEN you kick border the path to glory.
- Kids (and Ken Lehner) pick up kick timing fairly naturally, while adults, much less so.
:-)
I must say that I've been scratching my head while reading this thread, as I was never taught anything resembling kick timing. To this day, I have no idea when my kick (such as it is) occurs in relation to my stroke; given that (and I've tried to figure it out!), I feel bad for those who have to learn it. It never occurred to me that there are people for whom the timing doesn't "just happen." ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
I just kick. Sometimes I kick faster, sometimes slower, sometimes harder. I spend more time in practice thinking about the pull and making sure I don't overreach, as well as keeping my elbows up, than anything else. and I don't think I've ever had to think about timing the kick, that seems like it would be hard to coordinate consciously. if I did start thinking about it, I'd probably screw it up. Swimming Workout of the Day:
I am amazed that this conversation is taking place. A few years ago nobody was bringing up kick timing and rarely mentioning kick frequency or beat.
Having been instructing adults on kick timing and general swimming for a number of years, I am going to offer some general thoughts in no particular order.
- First, a 6 beat kick does not take 3x the energy of a 2 beat kick. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
- 2,4 or 6 beat kick should all have the same underlying pattern of one dominant kick timed roughly to the powerful finish of the same side pull. Opposite side entry timing brings something else to the mix, probably to be avoided.
- There is a correct kick timing, but no one correct kick rhythm. Answer is, it depends. Effort, duration, water conditions, stroke rate and athlete body type can all play a part in the moment to moment (ideally autonomous) decisions regarding proper kick rhythm. All the while the proper timing plays its' deep bass undertones.
- Kids (and Ken Lehner) pick up kick timing fairly naturally, while adults, much less so. Sorta like learning a foreign language. Adults generally need a progression of skills and drills to enlarge the aquatic vocabulary, before they "get" the feel of proper timing. There is an unmistakable 'propulsive boost' when kick timing is done right.
- Kick timing is fundamental to body position. Head position and gimmicks such as 'pressing the buoy' can fine tune body position, but you will not have good body position until you have both a well formed and properly timed kick. Well formed is with pointed feet, driven from the hips and a proper balance of knee tension and flexion.
How much you kick is a red herring. HOW you kick and WHEN you kick border the path to glory.
I wouldn't argue most of what you said, except the 4 beat counters rotation, where the 2 and 6 beat promotes it. Badig| Strava
This thread on total immersion swimming is disappointing me, we should have had insults hurling long ago. "In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
- Kids (and Ken Lehner) pick up kick timing fairly naturally, while adults, much less so.
:-)
I must say that I've been scratching my head while reading this thread, as I was never taught anything resembling kick timing. To this day, I have no idea when my kick (such as it is) occurs in relation to my stroke; given that (and I've tried to figure it out!), I feel bad for those who have to learn it. It never occurred to me that there are people for whom the timing doesn't "just happen."
Ditto, ditto, ditto:) "Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Well you swim "in phase" or in correct time, that I can see from a video you posted a while back. I think if you were fortunate enough to groove that out when you were young then it's 2nd nature, your body is working on instinct. Just like a hockey player can react to the play without so much as a thought to skating.
Speaking of which, on the bike I was climbing a steep grade and the "timing" is the same:
Pull Left, pedal stroke Left Pull Right, pedal stroke Right.
To me, it is kinda like riding a bike, or running with "correct" arm timing. IF you try to climb a hill on a bike pulling on the wrong side of the bars, you'll fall over. Running would just feel wrong.
- Kids (and Ken Lehner) pick up kick timing fairly naturally, while adults, much less so.
:-)
I must say that I've been scratching my head while reading this thread, as I was never taught anything resembling kick timing. To this day, I have no idea when my kick (such as it is) occurs in relation to my stroke; given that (and I've tried to figure it out!), I feel bad for those who have to learn it. It never occurred to me that there are people for whom the timing doesn't "just happen."
Ditto, ditto, ditto:)
Happy that I'm not the only one with this problem. People ask me all the time about this and whether I have a 4 or 6 beat kick or whatever. I tried to count it once and it was Heisenberg's Kick: actually counting seemed to change it. This kind of thing is - or at least can be - a real blind spot for many coaches (including meager tri club volunteer coaches like me) as we struggle to empathise with the problem.
- Kids (and Ken Lehner) pick up kick timing fairly naturally, while adults, much less so.
:-) I must say that I've been scratching my head while reading this thread, as I was never taught anything resembling kick timing. To this day, I have no idea when my kick (such as it is) occurs in relation to my stroke; given that (and I've tried to figure it out!), I feel bad for those who have to learn it. It never occurred to me that there are people for whom the timing doesn't "just happen."
Ditto, ditto, ditto:)
Happy that I'm not the only one with this problem. People ask me all the time about this and whether I have a 4 or 6 beat kick or whatever. I tried to count it once and it was Heisenberg's Kick: actually counting seemed to change it. This kind of thing is - or at least can be - a real blind spot for many coaches (including meager tri club volunteer coaches like me) as we struggle to empathize with the problem.
Ya, trying to count one's own kick makes the whole action way too conscious and hence affects the action. I'm always focused mainly on pacing and turn-over rate, i.e. not going out too fast. I can not count my kick beats and swim at the same time:) "Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
- Kids (and Ken Lehner) pick up kick timing fairly naturally, while adults, much less so. Sorta like learning a foreign language. Adults generally need a progression of skills and drills to enlarge the aquatic vocabulary, before they "get" the feel of proper timing. There is an unmistakable 'propulsive boost' when kick timing is done right.
- Kick timing is fundamental to body position. Head position and gimmicks such as 'pressing the buoy' can fine tune body position, but you will not have good body position until you have both a well formed and properly timed kick. Well formed is with pointed feet, driven from the hips and a proper balance of knee tension and flexion.
Just to clarify, but I think it's an important point, in that swimming is more about efficiency that propulsion. The "boost" in speed is a result of improved body position increasing your efficiency. It's like saying you get a boost when you go form sitting up to the aerobars while keeping power constant. TrainingBible Coaching http://www.trainingbible.com
- Kids (and Ken Lehner) pick up kick timing fairly naturally, while adults, much less so. Sorta like learning a foreign language. Adults generally need a progression of skills and drills to enlarge the aquatic vocabulary, before they "get" the feel of proper timing. There is an unmistakable 'propulsive boost' when kick timing is done right.
- Kick timing is fundamental to body position. Head position and gimmicks such as 'pressing the buoy' can fine tune body position, but you will not have good body position until you have both a well formed and properly timed kick. Well formed is with pointed feet, driven from the hips and a proper balance of knee tension and flexion.
Just to clarify, but I think it's an important point, in that swimming is more about efficiency that propulsion. The "boost" in speed is a result of improved body position increasing your efficiency. It's like saying you get a boost when you go form sitting up to the aero-bars while keeping power constant.
I don't think you can really argue this since, if "efficiency" were more important than propulsion, then we could all swim sub-45 for 100 scy with a good wetsuit and fins, which in combo would provide a great body position. However, this is not the case since even the best wetsuit and biggest fins will only improve a 1:40 100 scy guy down to maybe 1:20 at best on an all-out 100 scy, NOT down to sub-45:) "Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Efficiency isn't just drag. There's also the efficiency of propulsion, which is why we care so much about catch and pull mechanics. Swimming Workout of the Day:
You (to clarify) meant hydro-dynamic efficiency vs propulsion - and that I would have to agree swimming is a game of mm in terms of frontal area, flow etc, because the medium is so dense.
And most people don't appreciate this or maybe don't care because swimming endless "laps" seems to be the defacto. I was at the pool last nite and still amazed at all the unusual strokes. 95% of the swimmers in the pool had a FS of bizarre movements.
Now back to my bike pedal analogy, the pedal push is off the bottom of the foot like all land-based activity. So now in the pool, I have to push off the top of my foot.
Except for one swimmer last nite - nope kicking like a donkey, using the bottom of his foot, in proper time! And he was lapping at a decent pace, club swimmer. (Is the coach asleep?)
Questions: Should you practice 2BK timing using fins at first? What drills are best ?
One more link and the best one: <> And a PS: Here is my daughter exactly 2 years ago <> . I am having a hard time analyzing her kick, seems to be all over the place. She came out of the pool P1 out of ~125 swimmers in our local tri this year, gave me the race lead.. So pretty fast all the same! Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
This thread on total immersion swimming is disappointing me, we should have had insults hurling long ago.
there are, they're just not as obvious as before. But as I said earlier, the thread is a good example of a thread gone bad. Instead of an engaging and informative discussion of the relative merits of various style of kicking and how they relate to your triathlon swim, we have a thread of various people trying to "win" and little discussion. --------------------------------------------------------- The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
If you can develop a decent 6 beat kick, its a good tool to have available in certain situations when you need more speed. If you don't have a decent kick, the best thing you can do is get your legs out of the way so they don't slow you down.
A 6 beat always uses more energy than a 2 beat. Always. If you have a good 6 beat, then it is faster as well. if you have a really poor kick, it isn't. It's up to the individual to know where they fall on the spectrum. Swimming Workout of the Day:
Here's a new method to throw at you; using a shoulder driven stroke for your triathlon swimming. If you have somewhat of a kick, it might be worth developing more. Most triathletes don't have a good kick. HEre's the first of our Leg Series: http://www.theraceclub.com/...tip-legs-propulsion/
Questions: Should you practice 2BK timing using fins at first? What drills are best ?
One more link and the best one: <> And a PS: Here is my daughter exactly 2 years ago <> . I am having a hard time analyzing her kick, seems to be all over the place. She came out of the pool P1 out of ~125 swimmers in our local tri this year, gave me the race lead.. So pretty fast all the same!
Because the timing can be so hard, I get people to swim with 1 fin on first so they can feel when they are supposed to kick. Then after they get the hang of it on each leg, they use both fins, then no fins...
Your daughter defaults to to a 4 beat kick, but on the 2nd lap (I think) she is accelerating and moves to a 6 beat and then a 6 beat/2 beat occasionally as she tires (1 leg kicks a 6 beat, and the other kicks a 2 beat. you see it in that pause). It's a good kick. I would suggest you watch her shoulders though. People who swim with a 4 beat kick tend to swim flatter (as I mentioned the 4 beats cancels out a lot of rotation) and because of that flatter stroke, shoulder problems start to show up. (Off subject, but her left arm is crossing her centerline when the hand enters the water. that = crooked swimming among other things.) Badig| Strava
Thank you for the tips and feedback, much appreciated and I will (gently) pass the information on. She did have a sore shoulder as well.
This morning 6:30am I started 2BK with fins. I then moved over to the slow lane (only 1 swimmer /50M) to work on improving left side, using a Pull Buoy. You can still 2BK quite well with a PB. I tend to want to kick with both feet, habits are hard to overcome - something I see with waterskiers as well.
A bit more video of the kids, taken this summer. 9 year old is trying to best time this weekend in fly : Logan fly @1:20 Ayden FS on trailer <>
Jason, this is how I approached poor kicking with cyclists and runners. No correction was needed for swimmers.
What stood out is that they often kicked like they ran and cycled because of muscle memory OR they had compensating kicks in an attempt to get themselves back in balance.
To stop these patterns, I flipped them over to their back where they were to do two things: flutter kick and engage their lower abdominal muscles. As a dry land exercise they would flutter kick on their backs from the pool deck, bed or floor. Once they could flutter kick on their backs efficiently, it was time to flip them over.
The flutter kick and lower abdominal strength was still basically to build them up for a 2 beat kick, unless they were able to do a 6 beat kick rather naturally. From my experience and theirs, it seemed better to take just two average kicks rather than six average kicks from an economy perspective for MOP triathletes.
The main focus was on fixing breathing, comfort/confidence in the water, ability to roll up and down, body position and stroke, catch, pull. While power and drive for swimming comes from the front not the back, neutralizing a poor kick and creating a 2 beat pattern was necessary for a consistent body position in order to build a consistent stroke.
When improving an adult swimmer, everything doesn't improve at the same time, it's picking your battles and then going back later to improve further. Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.