JasoninHalifax wrote:
You started swimming 2 years ago and you're qualified to coach? Ummm, ok. There is a difference between coaching a swimmer and teaching someone how to swim. Maybe the latter is what you are doing?
Hmmmmm
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Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [JasoninHalifax]
[ In reply to ]
There is a difference between coaching a swimmer and teaching someone how to swim. Maybe the latter is what you are doing?
Hmmmmm
Formerly TriBrad02
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [Kevin in MD]
[ In reply to ]
Kevin in MD wrote:
As for looking at 1,500 swims and seeing what those folks do, that's true to a point, but even better would be to look at triathletes at the front of the group rather than swimmers. Harder to come across those videos.Sure, but when you do look at those videos, you see that the fastest of elite triathletes swimming 1500m (in a triathlon) are doing pretty much what fast distance freestylers are doing when they swim 1500m.
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Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [JasoninHalifax]
[ In reply to ]
I wonder how fast Brett Sutton swims?
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [d.hiddenwell]
[ In reply to ]
The difference, of course, is that sutton has been coaching since he was 10.
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Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [dianaP]
[ In reply to ]
dianaP wrote:
I approached swimming having a dance background. I was a breaststroker, so didn't have a habit of 4 or 6 beat freestyle kick patterns. I could swim 1 or 2 laps and then needed to rest. I learned TI swimming, learned the 2-beat kick (which I think can be learned by beginners - perhaps having a swim racing background actually makes it harder to learn the 2-BK) and can now swim a mile in 35 minutes, no stopping, no anxiety. And I became a certified TI coach.
I'd suggest that swimmers who have a 4 or 6 beat kick might try to master the 2-BK as a learning experiment. With 2-beats, it's easier to feel and improve the connection of hips to shoulders, and the timing of the arms. Then - I'd say, add back the extra kicks in a pattern that keeps the integrity of "core powered" swimming. You will probably keep the "accent (hip drive) on count one" as dancers might say...
I like to watch Sun Yang swim the London 2012 Olympics with his mashup of 2- and - more beat kicking: You definitely see the hip/arm/shoulder connection; the fewer strokes per length of pool. Some of the fast swimmers around him look inefficient.
I'd like to look "inefficient" like Ryan Cochrane.
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [dianaP]
[ In reply to ]
Cheers Diana, because there is a shortage of leaders willing to take on the adult swimming. A friend of mine Cindy, who holds the WR in masters backstroke (shes amazing) gave up the coaching the adult classes were overflowing and it was just too much!
OK having been a guy who started poking fun at "TI" after today' set, I realize it does have it's place and I should have been paying a much more attention to the content on here, and will in the future as the coach says!.
Today's set was spent 100% on kick timing, had my own lane.
1. Diagnostic: I was kicking right leg dominant, right leg for both "spears". Which explains why RH to breathe has always been my goto side. So I was out of phase, kicking right leg for both RH entry and LH entry, if that makes any sense!
2. Correction: It took a good 30-40 minutes. Very hard to begin to correct so I broke it all down. One arm FS (sometimes with one TYR burner fin). I had to work hard to get my LH leg to activate. This is just with a 2 beat kick. (very much like drumming, you have to slow things to get the movement right)
3. The "Death March": I was able to slowly march down the lane > Left Kick, Right arm / Right Kick, Left arm - (repeat). Very un-natural for me I was so out of phase before.
4. Amp-up: Only after the death march was grooved, did I amp up to a proper two beat, and this felt great. Water was flowing like never before. No fighting it, no kick drag!
5. 2-Beat Sprint: Challenge was to see how fast I could go will still maintaining kick in-phase.
6. 4 Beat experiment. Just a quick try at the 4 beat. Not too bad an easy extension of the 2
So back to TI, you can swim pretty effectively with an in-phase 2-Beat and good hydrodynamics upfront. Is it a shoulder driven 50M sprint. Hell no, but at least they have the phase timing correct. If you compare my gangman TI style video vs the original you can see my faults.
Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
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OK having been a guy who started poking fun at "TI" after today' set, I realize it does have it's place and I should have been paying a much more attention to the content on here, and will in the future as the coach says!.
Today's set was spent 100% on kick timing, had my own lane.
1. Diagnostic: I was kicking right leg dominant, right leg for both "spears". Which explains why RH to breathe has always been my goto side. So I was out of phase, kicking right leg for both RH entry and LH entry, if that makes any sense!
2. Correction: It took a good 30-40 minutes. Very hard to begin to correct so I broke it all down. One arm FS (sometimes with one TYR burner fin). I had to work hard to get my LH leg to activate. This is just with a 2 beat kick. (very much like drumming, you have to slow things to get the movement right)
3. The "Death March": I was able to slowly march down the lane > Left Kick, Right arm / Right Kick, Left arm - (repeat). Very un-natural for me I was so out of phase before.
4. Amp-up: Only after the death march was grooved, did I amp up to a proper two beat, and this felt great. Water was flowing like never before. No fighting it, no kick drag!
5. 2-Beat Sprint: Challenge was to see how fast I could go will still maintaining kick in-phase.
6. 4 Beat experiment. Just a quick try at the 4 beat. Not too bad an easy extension of the 2
So back to TI, you can swim pretty effectively with an in-phase 2-Beat and good hydrodynamics upfront. Is it a shoulder driven 50M sprint. Hell no, but at least they have the phase timing correct. If you compare my gangman TI style video vs the original you can see my faults.
Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [DarkSpeedWorks]
[ In reply to ]
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Kevin in MD wrote:
As for looking at 1,500 swims and seeing what those folks do, that's true to a point, but even better would be to look at triathletes at the front of the group rather than swimmers. Harder to come across those videos.Sure, but when you do look at those videos, you see that the fastest of elite triathletes swimming 1500m (in a triathlon) are doing pretty much what fast distance freestylers are doing when they swim 1500m.
Certainly the fastest elite tri swimmers are "fast distance freestylers" but not nearly as fast as the fastest pure swimmers. The fastest time i've ever heard for a top triathlete swimmer (when doing tri training, not in a previous life of pure swimming) is around 15:30 for 1500 scm/1650 scy, whereas the WR for 1500 scm is 14:10. Quite a big diff:)
"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [ericmulk]
[ In reply to ]
Right.
But I don't mean the fastest swimmers in the world. I just mean the group of freestyle swimmers (high school age, college age, masters, whatever) that are typical in height and can swim under 17-18 min for a 1500m. Those are the swimmers I would watch. I would observe them as a group and would note what most of them do with their kick and their technique. And don't focus at the outliers, look at what works for the vast majority of them. That's what short course triathletes should try to emulate. Or so it seems.
.
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But I don't mean the fastest swimmers in the world. I just mean the group of freestyle swimmers (high school age, college age, masters, whatever) that are typical in height and can swim under 17-18 min for a 1500m. Those are the swimmers I would watch. I would observe them as a group and would note what most of them do with their kick and their technique. And don't focus at the outliers, look at what works for the vast majority of them. That's what short course triathletes should try to emulate. Or so it seems.
.
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Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [AdventureBear]
[ In reply to ]
AdventureBear wrote:
Anth wrote:
I've just been watching some Total Immersion videos and one thing that seems very different is the kick its not a constant kicking action but kick, pause, kick, pause.....
I'm wondering if there is any advantage for triathlon between any of the two kick methods?
I suppose constant kicking is like high cadence on the bike and run, high cadence seems to be the thing at the moment hmmm/ponders
The discussion so far on this thread reminds me of this quote
"The design is finished not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"
The kick can help rotate the body, create forward movement, and provide lift in the back end. Each swimmer needs to understand how their kick is fitting in to their stroke, what benefit it's giving them and how they can improve it. Some folks will use kicking to keep the back end up, while in the mean time they are pushing down on the front of the water with their stroke. If they were to fix the front end, the back end could be repurposed and the same energy used would help them go faster. Yet in many swim squads, as long as the athlete is doing a continuous or 6 beat kick the coach is happy, and hopes over time they'll get better at it.
If you take the above quote to the extreme and "take away" all the leg movements you're left with the ever popular "band" swimming or no kick swimming, which helps teach swimmer how to quiet the legs, create good balance in the front half and identify the core muscles better. Progress from there to 2 beat kicking which adds additional rotational component and not a lot of lift, a 4 beat may provide more lift and compensate for balance asymmetries at various stroke points (sun yang uses a 4 beat on his breathing cycle) and often a 2 beat on non -breathing for example. Progressing again, a well timed 6 beat kick provides rotation as well as propulsion. Each step also uses more energy and is less efficient when comparing energy spent for forward movement produced. Having the technical ability to choose your kick strategically based on energy management as well as swim speed in a triathlon is a high level goal for any triathlete.
No one suggests that a triathlete should go all out on the bike portion of a tri, or that their best tri run split should be equal to their best standalone run split. So why the inconsistency in suggesting a 6 beat or flutter kick is best for a triathlete because it will result in the best speed ? it may be faster when done well...but also uses more energy than a 2 beat kick. If a triathlete needs to manage energy across 3 sports, why not use kick timing as an energy management strategy and opt for a 2 beat kick more often? Why not spend time developing both a 2 and a 6 so you have choices? (you train in more than one bike gear too, right? )
PS here's a fast female with a 2 beat kick from what I can tell... honesty with a tempo that fast I don't know how she'd fit in 4 or 6 beats..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02I7GFwYuw
Disclaimer: TI coach, not my first post on ST.
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few."
Ah yes, the incomparable Janet Evans: her WRs in the 400 and 800 LCM free stood for almost 18 and almost 19 yrs respectively. The 800 stood from Aug '89 until Aug 2008 when Rebecca Adlington finally broke it at Beijing Oly Games.
"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [DarkSpeedWorks]
[ In reply to ]
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Right. But I don't mean the fastest swimmers in the world. I just mean the group of freestyle swimmers (high school age, college age, masters, whatever) that are typical in height and can swim under 17-18 min for a 1500m. Those are the swimmers I would watch. I would observe them as a group and would note what most of them do with their kick and their technique. And don't focus at the outliers, look at what works for the vast majority of them. That's what short course triathletes should try to emulate. Or so it seems. Ah, I see now and agree completely except i would expand this to say watch the really smooth, elegant swimmers at your pool and try to imitate them. I've been doing this for years and for me, this is a very powerful thing but only if i'm watching someone whose stroke really resonates in my mind, and whom i think i can emulate. For example, i would not try to emulate Janet Evans (way too fast on turn-over rate) or Sun Yang (too slow on turn-over) but i would try to emulate someone like Michael McBroom. Of course, watching in person in the pool is best:)
.
"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Post deleted by mauricemaher
[ In reply to ]
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [ericmulk]
[ In reply to ]
Here's a 5 million views TI video up for discussion: goto 1 minute or so and we see the two beat kick, executed well. Coaches Quiz:
1. Can you see a flaw in his kick?
2. What can be taken from this video in terms of technique?
3. How does an in-phase kick improve hydrodynamics? (physical/tangible explanation)
4. How can you determine which leg you'd expect swimmers to rely on more?
<a href>
You know, the problem with looking at top comp swimmers is that their stroke is a final product, run at high stroke rate, and thus the basic elements are lost in the mix. unless you are a highly trained.
Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
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1. Can you see a flaw in his kick?
2. What can be taken from this video in terms of technique?
3. How does an in-phase kick improve hydrodynamics? (physical/tangible explanation)
4. How can you determine which leg you'd expect swimmers to rely on more?
<a href>
You know, the problem with looking at top comp swimmers is that their stroke is a final product, run at high stroke rate, and thus the basic elements are lost in the mix. unless you are a highly trained.
Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [SharkFM]
[ In reply to ]
just a question? what level is the swimmer in this video? what kind of 1500m time? he is very gracefull in this weird swimming style but he seems like out for a walk when we are talking about running.
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Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [jonnyo]
[ In reply to ]
I honestly think his form looks like crap, if you break it down to look at things that actually matter for going fast. Look at how much he slows down between each stroke.
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Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [SharkFM]
[ In reply to ]
1) yes
2) His entry is clean, good rotation, and he pulls all the way through. Timing leads to a massive deceleration between each stroke though.
3 I dunno.
4 I can expect swimmers to rely on the leg on the side they breathe on. I want to see the kick perfectly even though.
Caveat, I'm not a coach....
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2) His entry is clean, good rotation, and he pulls all the way through. Timing leads to a massive deceleration between each stroke though.
3 I dunno.
4 I can expect swimmers to rely on the leg on the side they breathe on. I want to see the kick perfectly even though.
Caveat, I'm not a coach....
Swimming Workout of the Day:
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Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [jonnyo]
[ In reply to ]
jonnyo wrote:
just a question? what level is the swimmer in this video? what kind of 1500m time? he is very gracefull in this weird swimming style but he seems like out for a walk when we are talking about running.Using the demo video and doing some thumbnail math, 19-20 secs across 25m pool, puts Shinji at ~1:20/100m pace. He's swimming at a loping 1.25 tempo (secs per stroke) @ 13 spl. So roughly 20min/1500m, provided that tempo and stroke length are sustainable for long distance.
Stuart
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [StuartMcDougal]
[ In reply to ]
OK I wouldn't get too caught-up in times for Shinji because he's demo'ing the TI instructional approach.
Lifted from the two-beat thread, here's a more serious/competitive version of the same thing:
<a href>
Now, take a look at a two beat kick. In this clip I am swimming about 1:12 per hundred yards.
About the analysis tho:
JIH is correct, Shin's kick is actually a bit lopsided, he's left dominant. TJ is better imo on that - a more symmetrical kick. But you can see the obvious similarity.
Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
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Lifted from the two-beat thread, here's a more serious/competitive version of the same thing:
<a href>
Now, take a look at a two beat kick. In this clip I am swimming about 1:12 per hundred yards.
About the analysis tho:
JIH is correct, Shin's kick is actually a bit lopsided, he's left dominant. TJ is better imo on that - a more symmetrical kick. But you can see the obvious similarity.
Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
Post deleted by jonnyo
[ In reply to ]
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [SharkFM]
[ In reply to ]
I think this video really illustrates how an uncoordinated kick can affect your stroke:
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [JayZ]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [Anth]
[ In reply to ]
That's exactly how I feel most days. Especially on the deck before I get in the water.
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [SharkFM]
[ In reply to ]
SharkFM wrote:
OK I wouldn't get too caught-up in times for Shindigger because he's trying to sell learn-to-swim vacation timeshares to the 50-60 masses who want to bubble in their local pools and look good doing it. On top of that he's got the a/c off (nary a ripple), the pool's probably at 100 DegF (low viscosity) and he's lathered-up in snake oil...how else would you get that massive glide?? :) Lifted from the two-beat thread, here's a more serious/competitive version of the same thing:
<a href>
Now, take a look at a two beat kick. In this clip I am swimming about 1:12 per hundred yards.
About the analysis tho:
JIH is correct, Shin's kick is actually a bit lopsided, he's left dominant. TJ is better imo on that - a more symmetrical kick. But you can see the obvious similarity.
Hi SharkFM, I'm not sure who Shindigger is, but I assume you meant Shinji Takeuchi. His time is based on the video & math, not conjecture, special effects or snake oil. His priority is the shape of vessel moving forward. He does have a bit of asymmetry in his kick, but doesn't seem to cause any problems. Yes, Shinji is in the swim business and is very successful.
The TJ Freestyle video you posted is excellent too. Great streamline, 12 SPL @ 1.0 tempo (60 strokes per minute), and nice example of 2BK. Based on the video, he looks to be closer to 1:05/100y pace - and he makes it look easy, very economical stroke, looking like a walking/warm-up pace as well. Thanks for posting.
Stuart
Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [ericmulk]
[ In reply to ]
ericmulk wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Right. But I don't mean the fastest swimmers in the world. I just mean the group of freestyle swimmers (high school age, college age, masters, whatever) that are typical in height and can swim under 17-18 min for a 1500m. Those are the swimmers I would watch. I would observe them as a group and would note what most of them do with their kick and their technique. And don't focus at the outliers, look at what works for the vast majority of them. That's what short course triathletes should try to emulate. Or so it seems.Ah, I see now and agree completely except i would expand this to say watch the really smooth, elegant swimmers at your pool and try to imitate them. I've been doing this for years and for me, this is a very powerful thing but only if i'm watching someone whose stroke really resonates in my mind, and whom i think i can emulate.
Agree with you. But I would not watch/emulate the really smooth, elegant swimmers at your pool. I would watch/emulate the really smooth, elegant swimmers at your pool who are also kick-ass fast. If you race to go fast, those are the ones to imitate.
.
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Re: Total Immersion v Swim Smooth - Kicking [StuartMcDougal]
[ In reply to ]
well, I think Shinji has that assymmetry in his kick because he's actually overrotating and looking too high on the breath, so he has to throw in that scissor kick to stay balanced. it's a compensation mechanism. The overrotation means that it would be hard to bump up the turnover.
His stroke is very pretty and smooth, but pretty is not synonymous with fast.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
His stroke is very pretty and smooth, but pretty is not synonymous with fast.
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
JasoninHalifax wrote:
well, I think Shinji has that assymmetry in his kick because he's actually overrotating and looking too high on the breath, so he has to throw in that scissor kick to stay balanced. it's a compensation mechanism. The overrotation means that it would be hard to bump up the turnover. His stroke is very pretty and smooth, but pretty is not synonymous with fast.
HI Jason, That's not scissor or leg splay - his kick is very compact. I don't think he's over-rotating either, but on the border. His ow, non demo tempo is around 1.0 sec per stroke @ 15spl which puts him at ~1:15/100m pace. Not record breaking of course, but at 5'8" tall, non competitive swim background - he's pretty fast with a very economical stroke. In the context of triathlon swim leg, he would be in to top 5%.
Stuart