Unless you swim completely differently, what's to understand? Honest question, I've used them but I don't own one anymore. I don't recall it being a different skillset to swim with a wetsuit vs without, I just put the bloody thing on and swam...

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

 
One thing that was alluded to earlier, is that most triathletes need a swim instructor (to teach them how to swim), more than they need a trainer (to help them train for a given race).

Every coach is both instructor and trainer. But some will lean more in one direction than the other. One would not expect a an Olympic swim coach (or Brett Sutton either) to teach one "how to swim."

Most triathletes would probably be best served on a junior swim team. (This would be the right balance of instruction and training. (Judged on times that most triathletes swim). What's more is that, there are many many swim coaches for this level.

This might be a bit embarrassing though. A masters swim team with a patient coach might be a more acceptable alternative. A triathlon coach who is willing to invest time on the pool deck and who has experience teaching swimming- that could work also.

To state my own bias. I don't see the point in "training" to do a 55 minute wetsuit Ironman swim. Anyone who can swim 100 m in 1:05 can do that! Teach me to swim the 100m in 1:05 in the first place.
Then train me to swim the 55 minute IM.
That way I can do two things.

for a swimmer of your level, there isn't a big difference. you have good body position and decent kick., wetsuit just dosnt do much for you.

where brett excel was in taking great cyclist/runners and getting them to damage controle the swim. A lot of people are onset adult swimmers, will swim 3 times a week perhaps 30-60min a session. good luck teaching them to swim the old fashion way,.

or perhaps, forget mostly about the kick, and any other stroke but freestyle. The wetsuit will take care of the body position. now, you need to get some rhythm into them, a decent front catch, high turnover and high level of fitness. combine this with exceptional open water/drafting skills and you have this not so great swimmer sitting in your feet on race day. He still dosnt know very well how to swim, rely heavily on the wetsuit and drafting,....but the result is, they can neutralize faster swimmers. I saw brett pull this trick over and over, with different athlete. and it s definitely something I do a lot with my group of adult with limited time in the pool. we move exclusively to the lake in the summer and get fast! so far result leave no douth on the legitimacy of the process.

it s also the way I manage to swim at the front of races for almost 10 years....I never been a swimmer...never train like one. Pull boey as always been my best friend. I have learned to play the game and learn and focus only on the specific skill required for triathlon.

so is there a triathlon swimming....well, to a certain point yes.,

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Ok, that makes sense now. How does the approach change for warm water? If at all?

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

pick the right horse for the right course. If you are a professional triathlete weak swimmer that rely heavily on wetsuit, you stay away from hot water. It s about been smart and professional. go where you have a chance at been succesfull.

same idea, a cycling sprinter dosnt try to win mountain stages.

but to answer...if you are a weak swimmer and want to performe in Hawaii....you will have to find a way to get really good at this damage control skill. You will ultimately have to learn to swim properly...

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

not effortless at all.. get it done, but it's ugly.. but oddly enough it gets a lot better when I'm consistent with this workout..

Horses for courses. I usually pick flatter events for myself because I'm a bigger guy (180-ish, 6'2") and I have a disadvantage that shows up once the grade increases.

Personally I'm fighting with the coaching question myself. I'm an Oly-distance competitor, but have gone past MOP and am at the sharp end of of the field these days. I'm not a "KQ" kind of guy as I'll never run a marathon (genetics has given me unsuitable knees for that), but I do have a goal - pipe dream as it may be: I want a USA jersey with my name on it. (and not just buy one, thank you very much) I've qualified for Nats for next year, and my goal is that 17th AG placing that will get me the jersey.

In my last event, I was 8th overall into T1, 4th into T2 before I hobbled my way through the run as my knees continue to slowly heal up. I'm good with cycling, and I think I can take care of the running (I've got a plan for strength training, "running" on an elliptical, and a restart from zero with no more than 10% adder per week).

The gaps though are still stunning: it feels good to see that low number for out-of-the-water, till I see that the top swimmers still took 4 minutes out of me. At Nats, I'll need those 4 minutes.

I'm considering going to a Master's group, but I'm a stubborn git: I don't flip turn & don't really want to learn. The only stroke I know is freestyle crawl, and yes I swim in jammers. I don't want to be a menace / PITA to the "real" swimmers who are likely made up of lifetime swimmers. Plus I don't know that I'd get a lot of (what I think) I need: individual stroke analysis and corrective actions. I'm considering going to a practice to talk to the coach, and see if I can get maybe 2 one-on-one hour sessions per month - with the idea that I'll get a laundry list of things to work on (along with appropriate drills) between sessions. As much as I'd like to achieve my Nats goal, I do still need to be aware of the spending. "Real" coaching at $400-$500 per month is just NOT in my budget.

Is that a workable plan?

Masters swimming was one of the best things I ever did. 5 days a week for a few years. And I never did flip turns in practice, never. Or the butterfly. But boy did I learn a lot! I had to stop swimming with them
and boy has it impacted my swim times. Masters is for ALL type of "swimmers". Most open arms for Triathletes, they want your money.

Olympic race swimmers FOP, 20 minutes, bike 1:01, Run, sub 40.

You need to lose weight. I am 6'5", 160.

I have done okay without ever having a coach. It is not the coach. It is can you train ALL year long without someone pushing you? If not, and you have the money, go for it. But then I would ask if folks
are really serious anyways. And as I said, if having a coach was the only way to get to the FOP status, I would be BOP at all the races I do since so many have a coach, and most are not FOP racers.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

In my AG (45-49) I get a little more slack than those times, but not much. FOP at a local event and FOP at Nationals are two different things though, for sure. My current best bike split (1:02) was on a round-tube road bike with clip-on aero bars over top of my drop bars. There's a Fuji tri frame currently hanging on a hook in the basement with a collection of other parts waiting to be built up for next year, and I just got a Selector to replace my ancient, old-school UGI aero one. New tri-specific shoes are on the menu as well, as I'm currently leaving over 2 minutes on the table in my (awful) transitions. Time to learn the flying mount...

And yes, I'm fat. I've never hit an event at "goal weight", but my metabolism is such that if I try to maintain something like 165 all year, I'll lose all my bike power. What seems to work for me is to stay heavy for as long as possible, then taper down starting about 5-6 weeks before my "A" event. If my knees cooperate with my run plan, then Nats will be the first time in about 4 years that I'll go all-in on the weight loss plan. Even this season was more of a testing plan for me, with my last AG finish riding on the strength of my bike time and a decent swim, NOT my run (50 minute 10k, with knee brace installed at T2). I do think that getting the weight off will help with the running though as it will reduce the impact. Ultimately though I am hoping to get all I can from the swim and bike, assuming that my improvement in the run won't be to 40 minutes, but maybe 44 or so.

As far as coaching / pushing myself: I'm a periodic kind of guy, where I train all year but put in the really heavy lifting in three-month spurts. It's worked for me so far, but swimming is different. I can thrash away in the pool to the point where I'm dizzy when I finish my workouts, but that hasn't gotten me to where I want to be. I will still get schooled by all variety of "real swimmers" when they do show up in the pool - including those with more gray hair and/or additional mass than me. With the whole 1,000 times denser than air thing, swimming is about efficiency and I need to learn it.

Thanks for the advice on the Master's group. I've three to choose from here (north Philly burbs) and the per-practice cost is less than private coaching, so I guess I'll give it a try and see how it goes.

I spent 10 years thinking I could learn to swim on my own. I spent 10 years thinking that Master swimming was only for swimmers. Well, finally got off my duff and when I went, I started in the far right slow lane. No big deal.
I still never made it past the middle of the pool. The other side were the "real" swimmers. But boy after swimming 5 days a week for the entire off season, when I came back the next year to racing, my times went from 27 to 24.
Just those 3 minutes, getting out at the front, and getting out not tired, totally changed my race results!!!

I have a friend 56 who swims 21 for the Olympic. Others in the 55-59 went 1:01 at Edmonton on the bike in the 55-59. And I at 57 went 40:17 on the 10K which was a little long.

So for your AG, at least a 22 swim, 1:01 bike and 40 run would be needed for FOP in my area.

I just watch what I eat ALL the time. I get on the scale each night and check if I can eat my junk food the next day. I stay at race weight all year long. Everyone has a different body type, but, most still
carry a few pounds they do not need.

I train 2 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. This is not about racing. This is about trying to keep cancer and all the other stuff one gets away as we get old away.

Of all the things you could do, my first input is get to that masters swimming!! It will help you big time. Especially with your bike split of a 1:02, which is very strong.

My only other thought is are you doing hill running? I do this all the time, on every run, all LSD speed. It builds me strength.

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think you miss one of the key elements of coaching, an objective set of eyes to review/discuss training and performance. Doing the same thing week in week out is certainly one option. But, many people agree that it might not always be the best option for everyone.

And, if we are talking world class elites, most coaches need to hold back the athletes to help avoid injuries. They don't need pushing, they need restraint. That is why they are so good and why coaches are valuable.

I am talking about normal AG athletes, 99% of the folks who do the sport.

Yep, I do the same basic workouts the same all year long. And as I say, my results seem to be okay. So many ways to skin a cat, having a coach is one of many but is not the only way!!

I would rather get to the starting line of a race healthy and slow. I did zero long rides getting ready for IMLT 70.3 tomorrow. Will my race suck, probably. Am I glad I had my entire summer
to focus on things like babysitting my small grandkids? YEP. This is a hobby, not my life.

I did not say coaches were not valuable for some folks. And even some elites do not use coaches in their sports and do okay.

If you have the money, and need to be pushed, a coach might be the way to go, but for what?

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You've missed my point, or I wasn't clear.

A coach can provide much more to an athlete than simply 'pushing' them. Coaches provide the expertise and knowledge of how to develop athletes to improved levels of performance. They would be able to provide input on things like masters swim, might have got you in the pool sooner than 10years.

I think if you talk to most coaches, they would rather work with motivated people that they need to restrain than people they need to push out the door to train.

Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean that people don't want to race as fast as they can.

It continues to amaze me how many really fast people there are on ST, and how much good advice can be had from them. Thanks. 40:17 is a damn fast 10k before you add a bike and swim into the mix!

Running downhill will make my right knee scream in pain. I've considered adding a run workout where I do reps with a run up and a walk down, specifically for the strength factor.

I agree.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I was pretty proud at 57 this year to break 40 for the first time in all my races. I have no idea how I am doing it, but, I just keep at it.

The legs are the first thing to go, and once they are gone, or hurt, not sure there is much one can do. This is why I know a lot of folks who are now doing Aquabike racing.



.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Great thread and many good points mentioned.

-Master swim group: Yes, to learn to swim, it s much better to join a group, have a good coach on deck. Private lessons are ok if you don't have access to a regular group but it s not as good. there is no 1h session that as the impact of a constant follow up. Now, not every master swim group is created equal. It s always good to join na group that understand your focusing on triathlon. my point been, they focus a little more about freestyle and understand that with your limited time, you can focus on 4 strokes and don't have needs for it. I have my own triathlon swim squad here in Penticton as I wanted a no compromise approach to training for triathlon. there is perhaps other option like this in your area.

-Coaching: my biggest contribution as a coach is getting my new athletes over there injury issue and on the path of consistency. Over the years, I had many athlete in similar situation as your that will come tell me they don't have the right ''genetic'' to be a runner, or too heavy or not flexible enough to be a good swimmer etc. I hear it routinely. The biggest challenge for me as a coach is to have them drop that way of thinking. Your knee isn't happy for a reason. but there might just be a way to train it and rebuild it so you can have good fun, painfree consistant running. One of my recent athlete, from this forum is a doctor, late 40s, great attitude but a little concern about getting coach and been pushed in the running. he struggled with his knee. This season, after changing his training protocole and idea of running, we are now at the point that his is running faster in half ironman races than he was in open half marathon. my contribution to this, I restored consistency, and make to call of when to hold him back and when to allow him to run harder. All this for a lot cheaper than it would cost someone to go see a physio weekly!

-your plan. as I don't know your specific knee issue, I highly douth that your path to injury free is strength training. at least not in the weight room. Losing the weight might help but more importantly, it will come figuring out what the issue is, and if you can manage 1min of pain free slow running, you are a perfect candidate for walk run program all the way back to full pain free running.

-180 6,2 those are very good numbers to be a monster biker. Don't see it as a disadvantage but a strength. if you get a good proper bike position, you will produce a lot more watts than the 150lbs skinny triathlete and that is what count of rolling and flat course.

best of luck with your goal!!! keep focus, get the daily training done, you will get there!

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Best quote: "A coach gets you to do the things you don't want to do."

I spent a couple of months paying a good man to send me good workouts... that I would modify. He kept sending me kick sets... and I felt like my 58 min wetsuit swim in Mirror Lake was evidence enough that I didn't need to change my training routine. He kept sending me kick sets. He also had me doing "one leg drills," on the bike, core work in the gym, and "strides" on the run. Lots of easy spinning and running with attention to cadence. I did lots of "Sweet Spot" on the bike and frequent 30 min "Zone 3" runs. He kept sending me easy bike days, swim drills, and strides. I've been training for triathlons "my way" relatively successfully for the past 32 years. Its early off season. Reading this thread has helped me to realize that my relative success has led me to a plateau that is drifting downward with each year. Eventually, the guy wore me down. I am now struggling through these "non-specific" strength and skill workouts six months out from my first triathlon of 2015. For me, its fun and a challenge to build to a level of fitness where I can "race" to the best of my ability (given my professional and family obligations). My coach is still working on getting me to let go of "Ironman dreams." He knows that in order to maintain my "love for the sport," that I need to get back on the podium. I won't be going to Hawaii, but with his help (mainly encouragement and focus), I can post times similar to those M55-59 that I just read. Its on guys :-)

PS: My coach is a former All-American swimmer who is a very successful AG triathlete. Another guy, who nobody trashes on ST... Dave Scott includes lots of kicking and drills in his swim programs. Perhaps kicking provides benefits greater than improving one's swim split. I wouldn't know... I've only been using a kick board for a few weeks, and it sucks!

One of the things I did once I read through this initial thread was check out your website. You're just too damn far away.

Running injury - it's a mystery. Pain in right front of knee, in the soft spot to the right of the big tendon that goes down the front. Doesn't bother me any other time than about 3 miles in on a run, at which point it can get so bad that I'll start walking. Was diagnosed with torn medial meniscus and had that cut away, but the root pain came right back. My ortho guy (a hardcore cyclist) suggested that I try that injected grease thing that you need to renew every 3-4 months; not really my thing. After the training time and cash lost on the meat work AFTER having gone out of my way to find an athlete ortho, I'm not inclined to go that route again.

I did do about a month of PT before the surgery that included a lot of strength training, but it included a lot of minor-muscle group work with ankle weights while lying on the floor. I'll focus more on those, and hamstring strength. My quads overpower everything from years of biking & skiing.

I agree with you in this: there is some mechanical imbalance, or something I'm doing fundamentally wrong that is causing the pain. I was a 17-flat 5k'er in high school, and that's the pace my body "remembers" but there's no way I can maintain that any more, so I'm lost without a workable pace, just kind of chuffing along trying to find a smooth, pain free rhythm.

Thanks for the advice, and the luck. I could use both.

so your saying you can run 2.5miles painfree? do you feel it the next day?

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

This is when I got out the rubber "Crazed Narcissist" stamp out of the drawer and stamped your file. One can understand your pride at maintaining a BMI lower than Chris Froome all season long but who talks like that?

The OP may or may not benefit from a coach but the answer has nothing to do with your skinfold measurements or run split.

---

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

Really, I don't mind - and he's right. In general I think that everyone that competes (triathlon or otherwise) has some narcissist in them - if we weren't proud of our accomplishments we wouldn't try to achieve them in the first place. The amount of this can vary of course, but again - he's right, I'm too big.

At the risk of major embarrassment, here is my middle-aged athlete shot (credit Rev3) in all it's glory - even at 180-ish there's a bit too much chin, and on the downbeat of my stride my beer storage area can clearly be seen:




I know it's affecting my times, but I like to eat. I've gotten this far carrying that around, but if I want to get to my goal it needs to go.

Pain free depends on the day. Right now for instance, no part of my knee is pain free but it isn't stopping my everyday life from going on with no Advil. However I hadn't run since mid-August before competing last weekend. In mid-Aug, as preparation, I was running every 2-3 days, about 3 miles or so. I got cocky one day and went for 4.5 - at 4 miles the pain came on like a train. *Like a damn fool* I gutted it out for the last half mile, and then it was sore right up till competition last weekend. During that event, I put on my massive, aluminum-bar reinforced knee brace as part of my T2 then hobbled off onto the run course. The pain came at about 3 miles, but didn't get out of hand with the brace on.

Honestly I was flattened after the event. Monday and Tuesday at work I was happy I remembered how to spell my name, and it was Thursday before I could walk without appearing to be carrying m&m's between my clenched cheeks. It hurts now (the knee), but just behind-the-scenes pain - not the active ice pick thing that happens during the run. I plan to give the legs at least a month off of ANY running, concentrating mostly on the swim and maybe some seat-time work on the bike. (Zone 3 stuff) From there, I was going to start with elliptical machine (running with no impact) for a month, then onto the introduction of treadmill work, then finally to road course assuming it all stays together. Assuming all goes to plan, the test-the-waters event will be early May 2015.

Im not saying you couldn't benefit from calling Jenny (couldn't we all) but on H20's math you should get yourself down to about 150. Try that on for size, do you think your wife would like the ET look?

---

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

I have slowly gained weight with age. At 6'1'' and 195lbs, I end up racing at 188 or so. I lose ground to the "lean and mean" during the run, but sometimes it takes a while for them to catch me. I have always been a "big unit"... but my run splits have really slowed more than other competitive M55-59. Your picture implies that you run like I do... my posture makes me inefficient as I fatigue, and that means that my weight really slows me down. Core strength and running form are my off season focus. Optimal racing weight is a complicated subject... but the ability to maintain proper running posture will not only make us faster for longer, but will help avoid (or recover from) injuries.