I think the whole issue is how poor triathletes are at marketing themselves. Potts is exceptional from a marketing standpoint; TD not so hot. There are a few who know the game, or have good advisors. (Rinny, Potts, Crowie, and perhaps a few others). Just winning races does not bring money......that is done through promotion. I think things are also quite a bit different in Europe where companies drop money on their athletes. Not so in the US where only the big money pro sports garner such paydays.

That said, I am not one to feel pay over winning is the marker. Similar to Olympic athletes, I think most would sacrifice any monetary gains for that gold medal.....and an Ironman Kona title is in the same league.

Agree 100%, espec with the bolded part, very easy to over-train if you're highly motivated.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

so ... a multiple Kona winner gives advice to losers on how to maybe win it and everyone pushes back ? Sure, the losers have it all figured out ... slowtwitch FTW.

there is no specific point in been a pro... it s a personal opinion and reason for each.

i personally could not care for the money. And i consider Tim accomplishment bigger than Andy as he won the hardest race in the sport....twice. He took a very risky approach and he was driven by one single element...kona. So while you would take Andys results over Tim...i would do exactly the opposite without thinking twice. it s a simple matter of preference, passion, personal interest/challenge.

Peter Reid was the same...he could not care about anything but one day in the year. It s a simply matter of what drives you. money isn't the goal for everyone.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

There is also another way to look at the Europeans....how many times have the European's put down some insanely fast times in the season in Europe and many people were talking about how they would shake it up in Kona and then an Canadian, Australian or American wins. The fact is, there are fast people everywhere. I like Andy's reply.

I would also add that I don't think Tim would necessarily be able to hang with the boys right now. His winning times were 8:30 and 8:31. Dave Scott mentioned in an interview last year that had Chrissie not been injured from her crash right before her last Kona, she could have gone 8:30. Tim's times are a far cry from the times now and the pro races now have far more energy draining surges (tactical) as Craig Alexander and Macca have mentioned in interviews.

The fact is...there are far more people capable of winning on race day than 10 years ago. Just look at the predictions thread. 10 years ago, the guesses were much safer.

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Adrian in Vancouver

^^^ This...the article wasn't about "how to monetize a pro career or how to a have one time 2nd place and be a know it all"

Tim won back to back Kona Championships and was on his way to winning a third when he collapsed on the marathon from kidney stones but yeah...Potts and Hoffman have it all figured out. And was someone questioning him being a Just a husband and not a true family man? seriously? I happen to know Tim and his life literally revolves around his wife and his daughter. Period. Also the all so wonderful nice guy and mr. smiles AP isn't always that way. Ask the folks in Galveston in the med tent post race what their thoughts are on him when he threw a temper tantrum because the doctors wouldn't give him an IV because they had a shortage. Give me a break. I would take Tim DeBoom everyday and on Sunday over Potts and Hoffman. typical slowtwitch, questioning a two time back to back world champion. this place is ridiculous

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

I have not done an Ironman, so I can only imagine the exhaustion and burnout someone would feel. Why wouldn't a person be straight pissed if the med tent ran out of IV. That is ridiculous!!!!

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Adrian in Vancouver

Exactly, every one should be pissed when they aren't allowed to break the anti-doping rules! "In accordance with the WADA Prohibited List (Category M2 Chemical and Physical Manipulation), all IV infusions and/or injections of more than 50mL (~3.4 tablespoons) per 6-hour period are prohibited, except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital admissions, surgical procedures or clinical investigations. IV infusions and/or injections of more than 50mL per 6-hour period are prohibited at all times, both in- and out-of-competition unless the athlete has applied for and been granted a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) under the applicable anti-doping rules."

Ooops....my error.

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Adrian in Vancouver

We've had this discussion in another thread. Most people receiving IVs after a race are probably in violation, but it is doubtful if anyone would question it if a Doctor felt it was medically necessary. That, however, is a far cry from dropping into the med tent and requesting one.

You are only allowed to get one if the medical staff determines you are in serious dire straits. I had an athlete after Ironman Texas this year who had the shivers, was seeing double and had stopped sweating who was REFUSED ONE. There is a national shortage of IV's which has been discussed at length on here before. Potts was in NO WAY in need of one as determined by the head doctor there. After he was refused one and continued to throw a fit about it went to the RD and the head Sponsor rep for Memorial Hermann to pressure the doctor into letting him get one. She relented and gave him one. Tell me how that is fair? It's bullshit. He stood there and handed out medals to finishers. Just as a side note the doctor who made the call doesn't follow triathlon, doesn't know who any pro is, doesn't know anything other than it's three disciplines.

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

Do we really have to talk the ironcowboy and his deciphles again?

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blog

Never before done by Canada.

I don't think we have ever had 3 men in the top-10. Throw in two women possibilities in the top 10 and that's 5 Canadians in the top 10 in Kona!

That's unprecedented = never been done before! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Steve, I suggest we wait till next Sunday before counting anything. When we had Lori, Peter, Heather, Lisa in the field at Kona, those were some pretty good overall days for Canada. Before we count anything, this crew will need to beat the late 90's group. So far the current crew has done nothing in Kona. As we know, results elsewhere don't always translate that well. For example, hopefully Lionel sorted out his nutrition in the heat. Texas and Tremblant were works in progress both on hot humid days.

Agreed and indeed! 4 of the 5 are rookies in Kona.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Hahaha. NO!!! Sorry. Just the mere mention of that guy gave me the shakes!

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

[/quote]You are only allowed to get one if the medical staff determines you are in serious dire straits.[/quote]



That's absolutely not the case in reality, I've seen athletes and especially pros getting IVs all the time. In fact the last Ironman I did I was totally fine afterwards, the med staff just casually asked me if I wanted an IV to help recover, and I said sure. The med tent was full of fellow pros getting IVs as well as plenty of amateurs. I would call that the norm rather than the exception, based on what I've seen in the past. Perhaps they've tightened up on that just recently, but that certainly has not been my experience in the past. So it would make sense that Andy was pissed, because they typically give out IVs like candy

When you already have a family, making money to support your family is a huge factor.

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Formerly DrD

If andy had won Kona at some time in the last ten years especially as an American good chance his earnings would have been much more than they have been to date.

He then could have still run around in 70.3 and other races while coming back every other year or so for a Kona focus

You are only allowed to get one if the medical staff determines you are in serious dire straits.[/quote]



That's absolutely not the case in reality, I've seen athletes and especially pros getting IVs all the time. In fact the last Ironman I did I was totally fine afterwards, the med staff just casually asked me if I wanted an IV to help recover, and I said sure. The med tent was full of fellow pros getting IVs as well as plenty of amateurs. I would call that the norm rather than the exception, based on what I've seen in the past. Perhaps they've tightened up on that just recently, but that certainly has not been my experience in the past. So it would make sense that Andy was pissed, because they typically give out IVs like candy[/quote]
You are right, I should have said it differently. My point was you shouldn't be able to walk in and say hey I need an IV. It certainly has changed in the past year or two with the fact they are super low on IV's nationally. I was just trying to point out that it was pretty sad that he threw a fit and tried to use the "do you know who I am" card. Regardless of it being the norm or what he may or may not be use to the burden of proof has been tightened. So much so that people I thought for certain would receive one post Ironmans are NOT getting them. crazy.

As for the family man comments and stuff. I don't think anyone is suggesting he shouldn't do what's best for his family as I know that should be the case. I feel like Tim was trying to challenge them and say "you have adjusted other things in your racing schedule to get to the positions that you have achieved, do you think you should try and rethink what you are doing to get to the next level?" The European analogy I think was not so much to say go to europe it was, "hey, go find the best competition and race against them". How is it that the Aussies and Euros can successfully race all over the globe but when we challenge our precious US pros we give them every excuse? seriously. Tim Reed travels ALL OVER the world to race the best competition and I know he is a VERY dedicated family man and husband. It's about getting out of your cushy world and making things happen. the way Potts answered the question it makes it sound like he wants to win Kona ONLY if it comes out of the current way he operates and races. that's insane. Hoffman to me ( just my opinion) came off a little too confident for my liking, I thought he seemed to certain he had it all figured out. correct me if I'm wrong but what had Hoffman accomplished of that magnitude before that 2nd? I mean seriously, I know A LOT of people within the industry that were equally as shocked when he nabbed 2nd. Tim was an "all in" for Kona kind of guy. I can respect that. for him and Tony (his brother) it was about being the best in the world. That's all Tim knew, knows. whether or not he monetized off of it is ridiculous. If you know Tim you would know he HAS monetized off of it. He helps A LOT of companies behind the scenes because of his meticulous nature when it comes to scrutinizing equipment and nutrition. Next time you see him ask him about his and Peter Reid's training rides and then swimsets after. holy crap. Tim is tough as nails, his brother was an Army Ranger and I feel certain that Tim would have been one as well. I thought Tim did awesome and did exactly what we need here in the US...shake. things. up. Potts and Hoffman ( or any US male and female pro) would be well served to sit down, zip your lip and listen.

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

 Keep in mind too that Andy did not start Ironman until relatively late in his career, and it has never really been his focus distance. Plus it may just be that his body type is not ideally suited for Kona. Kona really seemed like an afterthought for him at a latter point in his career. Tim's entire career was based solely on Kona. So given that I would actually argue that Andy has done far better. Not only that but if you compare their two resumes I would say Andy is by far and away much better career. He has infinitely more wins, at every distance imaginable, and has capitalized on the marketing much better as well. Not only that but he's done it at a modern time that is far more competitive than when Tim did it. Tim did win the biggest race on the planet, but not much else. Andy has won everything else, and still does fairly well at Kona. Tim's fastest Kona time ever would not have won the race in the last 10 years, so that tells you how much more competitive it's getting!

Just my random armchair quarterback thoughts, they are both major studs no doubt!

Potts hasn't won Kona and that was the question. Not who had the better career. Tim finished 1st twice and a second and a third there... pretty sure he has a good idea how to race the biggest race in a professional ironman triathletes career. This entire discussion is based on Kona. As for the more competition I would say go back and look at the results and who he was racing against. fairly certain he had some seriously tough competition. Van Lierde, Reid, Hellriegel, Stadler, Cam Brown, etc. That's great that Potts has won a bunch of races at different distances and more wins overall but he is not a Kona champion. Also, Most of, if not all of, Mark Allen's times and Dave Scott's times wouldn't win now a days. Does that make them not as accomplished at Kona as well? the time is only relevant to the day. It's about who crosses first.

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

look at the results chart and it's very obvious that the fields are not only much much faster, but much much deeper than they used to be. Not only faster overall but much smaller difference between 1st thru 10th place times. To your point, Mark and Dave's latter times were actually very competitive to modern standards. But I digress.....


The whole article is focused on career choices revolving around Kona. Andy is giving his reason for not solely focusing on Kona. Thus it makes sense to compare the two career paths. My argument, and assumedly Andy's argument, is that Andy has chosen a better path ( for him anyway ). Tim won almost 15 years ago, that was lifetimes ago since triathlon has developed so fast. I certainly think Andy has a better take on what's happening in the here and now, rather than focusing on the logic of 15 years ago. Tim's advice might (or might not) be the best path to Kona, but Andy's path is likely better for the big picture of his own career

Regardless there is certainly no guarantee that if Andy focused more on Kona that he would do any better whatsoever. I think Andy is more than qualified to make a solid counter argument against Tim's position. Andy is choosing what's best for Andy

[quoteWhy stick to the safety of the States instead of getting yourself out there and getting out of your comfort zone of racing some of these guys who are performing in Kona and winning it?[/quote]
Hoffman got second at the world champs, he IS one of the guys that's performing.

Why give him a grilling as if he doesn't know what he is doing just before kona, when he can't change anything for this year anyway. The only way it can help now us for Hoffman to get fired up to prove Tim wrong.

Ben has had success and should be enjoying the buzz around that instead of being lumped in as a also ran

wow. I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that Tim is more aware of what is going on now than you are giving him credit for. I'm not sure why people are so put off by tough love. Andy did argue that his a better path for him and I am not begrudging him that AT ALL. What I am saying is that it's fair that a past champion can critique it and question his seriousness of trying to win Kona when his current set up isn't producing results. You are right, there is no guarantee that anything would or could happen but the facts in hand are Tim won two. I'm not really sure what you have against TDB but I can assure you he has done waaaaay more for the sport they you are giving him credit for.

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs