Ya you're right and I didn't mean to imply that LS should try to train under Bowman but rather I was just elaborating on "TheStroBro"'s post. In any case, there are lots of amazing swimmers in AZ, no need to go Aussie. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Fair enough - and actually I missed that it was you I was replying to because you know better...lol

NOW, if you want to say he should go watch a practice or two...that could help hahaha. But yeah - there's a lot of fast enough guys in Tucson - and hopefully GR is helping him as he goes thru the winter. Which I am sure he is...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

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Yep. I reckon every young wannabe pro from Nth America should make at least one trip down to either the Gold Coast or Sunshine Coast for one Aussie summer. The sheer volume of athletes on display every day at the beach,the pools or on the road (here where I am on the northern Sunny Coast) is just mind blowing.

What I would really like to know is how often is he swimming??? Sure we saw one hard practice on that one video but what he needs are hard practices at least 6 days a week, and maybe even 9-10 per week. IMHO, he needs to just bury himself in the pool, to get to the point that his shoulders are sore, to just really kill himself in the pool. He'll get slower for awhile but then, after a few very easy days, he should bounce back and actually be faster. Keep repeating this as a 4-week cycle and he might actually drop some serious time. BUT, he has to really, really get after it in the pool. One or two "Key Workouts" per week isn't going to cut it.

I don't know how many people have seen it but on that thread "A world record in the pool that some STers could break...", the poster Rumpled said that, over one Xmas break, his distance group swam 100 x 100, 5 x 5000, a ladder of 1000, 2000, up to 5000 and back down, and a few other really long workouts. Now Lionel prob could not handle most of these workouts, he could benefit from at least 1 or 2 workouts like these. I think he could prob do the 100 x 100.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

In my experience living overseas, this is under appreciated.

Now that it is brought up, I've heard of that Arizona team. Incredibly strong. Top college swimming in the USA is wild.

But it's different in oz.

The pointy end is, let's just say, equally pointy (ie the great usa vs aus pool rivalry). But aus gets there by mass participation and having a large fraction of the population living in a very strong swim culture. And pool swimming is only a part of it. Where I live we have large groups, of mixed standards , doing full open water almost all year (we usually stop for a month or two in middle of winter) in almost all surf conditions. It's like that all up the east coast. But even then it's nothing like going to sunny coast. Its not anything like that anywhere else in the world. Anywhere I've lived or visited anyways.

The standard at any big college in usa is obviously outstanding. But I don't think you're going to get the full experience you could get in a place like sunny coast, Gold Coast etc. Spend a nth hemisphere winter doing your pool training there, while training with Northcliffe slsc, currumbin, newport (sydney) etc.

Could well be too expensive. Might not fit in schedules. Might not be lowest hanging fruit. Etc etc. I agree. But if it's your achilles heal, you've been doing a lot of stfu and swim for years, and you're running out of time and your career depends on it, definitely not a bad idea.

I might try find that podcast.

Lionel's (former) boy Ari Klau is off to Oz for 2 months for a swim camp, as he's had enough of coming out of the water 4mins down on the lead group. I'm sure that'll end up being quite an expensive trip, but pleased to see Ari taking a punt and going all in to improve.

There's an obvious difference though between elite swimmers and elite triathletes. A swimmer spends maximally 15m/50m underwater and a bit more flip turning. That's 30% of the race. A triathlete spends the first few tenth of a percent of the race underwater and does no turns. A 50m is more specific to open water than a 25m, and a 25m slightly more so than a 25y.

Training with people faster than you usually makes you faster, but if your improvements come from faster turns and dolphin kicks it's not going to be much use in open water tri swims.

As I've said in other posts, I did not say LS should try to swim at ASU but rather I was just expanding on TheStroBro's post saying that "there's a pro team that trains at ASU". Also, since you and several others keep harping on the 15 m underwaters, that is only in the 200m and under events. If you were ever to watch the 500 (yd) free at the D1 Nats, you would see that all the swimmers are coming up about 6-7 yds out of each turn. Even elite swimmers can't keep up 16.5 yds out of every turn for 20 lengths, b/c then they only get like 3-4 breaths per length which not sustainable over 500 yds and up.

Actually, I thought I'd get some blowback about saying LS should be killing himself in the pool, :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

No doubt Ari will improve quite a bit in 8 weeks. I’m interested in if the gains will remain in 8 months once he adds the full running and biking program back into his training.

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Let food be thy medicine...

For the past few months, according to his Strava, he’s swimming daily with doubles some days. I don’t think lack of volume has ever been his problem. It’s a lack of focus on his technique combined with a lack of innate swim skill/feel for the water. I really like Lionel but some people just aren’t born to be swimmers.

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Let food be thy medicine...

Even the world's best open water swimmers in the Olympics spend the overwhelming majority of their time in the pool. It's very rare that you are an ok pool swimmer and incredible open water swimmer (or vice versa). You can work on your stroke easier, you can get coached easier in the pool for the majority of time. For the most part fast turns and improved streamlined are usually going hand in hand with better swimming overall. The only real difference would be in the starts for swimmers vs triathletes. Obviously the overall volume and frequency are fundamentally different; but of course the demands for each sport dictate that. But improving your streamline or turn off the wall makes you more aware and/or breath control in the water which can of course help in ows.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Your form should not be "resetting" on every turn, and form definitely does not reset for most swimmers. Also, you only get a push-off at the start of each length, not "7 m of great gliding form on each end". Further most swimmers don't get 7 m on every turn b/c over the course of say 400 m, you get into a bit of oxygen debt and so you come up for a breath at around 5 m. Thus your typical swimmer is swimming about 20 out of 25 m or about 80% of the time. You guys who argue you've got to swim OW to train for OW are missing the fact that most top OW swimmers train in the pool 99% of the time, and that pool could be 25 yd, 25 m, or 50 m, and it won't matter. Further, at the Worlds and Olys, many of the OW swimmers also swim the 800 and 1500 m pool events, and sometimes even the 400 free. Several swimmers have medaled in both OW and pool events at these meets; Ous Mellouli and Florian Wellbrock come to mind from memory.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Jack - Thanks for this info. I've never been a Strava guy so had not thought to check his account.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

^^^^This.

He's been logging swim yardage as a world-class triathlete for over a decade. In his mid-30s I doubt he's going to get much fitter as a swimmer. Fitness isn't his limiter though, it's technique. Banging out hard sets with poor form isn't going to get him much return; he should doing a lot more drills (esp. in the off season).

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I don't necessarily think that to be true. I think this is the 1st time in his career he's attacked the swim with a true purpose. I think in the past it's been much more lip service approach, because for many years his shitty swim wasn't the issue that it now is at the pro level (how many workouts has he done without a swim coach on deck over the years). So he certainly hasn't been attacking it like he finally now is when his back is against the wall (he admits that right in one of his videos?). I'm sure he's had points of time where he's focused on it and he's used experts at times, but I don't think it's every been with this much of a focus. Now of course I do agree doing it this late in your career, no I don't think it will work out because that time table of swim committment and the likely time table of the new pro series- this doesn't really work out very well to go "all in" on this swim improvement and put everything else in maintanece mode for an semi extended period (which is what it likely would take at min to truly see if he can make that jump to chase pack).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The "time table of the PTO Tour series" has zero effect on Sanders: make excuses but not that one. He has not been offered a PTO contract (he is far too low on the rankings). He has already said he will favour IM (brand) races. I assume his competitive schedule will include 2 IMs in the IM Series (Texas plus choice of Cairns, Vitoria-Gastiez, Lake Placid). Assuming he gets a KQ then game on. There's plenty of 70.3s in the series from which to choose one, but he may need to race a non-series one to get a start in Taupo. Finally it's likely he'll get a wild card for one or two of the NA venue PTO Tour races. As an opener he'd be wise to sharpen with Clash Miami (9-10 March - 8 weeks time!!) and see if he can ride round the circuit in a highly competitive race without crashing, and then head over to Oceanside 3 weeks later, and Texas 3 weeks after that.
https://www.trireg.com/clash-miami-2024

No where did I mention the PTO series in my post. The IM series being that it’s offering fairly big money for pros will of course have an impact on his training schedule. He’s going to have to be “ready” for IM’s at a much quicker pace and thus this “all in” on the swim time table will undoubtly be affected. So it’s not an excuse it’s the reality of the new world pros are racing in, so he undoubtly would have likely been given longer runway to keep going “all in” on this swim time table if not for this new announced pro series. He would have likely raced a summer IM to KQ not a late April IM when he’s only gone “all in” on this swim training for what only 6 weeks now??? Dec time frame start. Add in an April IM structure vs later summer is way different training structure.

make sure when you quote me you quote me correctly. There is no way LS would be racing an IM in April time frame until this series and its money structure was announced.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Sorry. I thought your "pro series" was another of your typos for 'PTO Series'. If all three IMs (including Kona) go 'OK' he should finish in the top 10 of the 'IM Series'.
https://www.ironman.com/...es-race-series#bonus
But, hey, #11-50 still get $5000 so it's totally worth designing the year's schedule around that. And he'll add colour and interest to every races for which he toes the line.
https://stats.protriathletes.org/athlete/lionel-sanders

You've read my thoughts on PTO and LS's participation to know that isn't a reality. He's not fast enough so unless PTO gave him a boat load of money it would be stupid to race PTO; and PTO is not going to win the public buy in over by promoting personalities that finish mid pack. So he'll do the 1 or 2 local PTO race(s) and likely get an appearance fee and that'll be about the extent of LS racing PTO.

But what the PTO and IM series have done is make it very very profitable to be an professional athlete right now. Thus unless you truly are the odds on favorite type of athletes who can just show up 1-2 events a year and win (Frodo type); LS is going to have to grind his way through this series to get the biggest money at the end of the year. Thus any thought prior to this IM Series of truly trying to fix your swim in "off" season + early season and racing late IM's / 70.3 to KQ / 70.3Q at the late events this year is out the window. With IM events scoring much greater in the pro series, IM TX in late April is now going to have to be a priority.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Blah! "Should not" is not something I disagree with. If Sanders is consistent posture all the way across the pool, fair enough. 🙄 what I'm saying is after that push off, it's not surprising that a couple meters after your 5m quibble his posture still has the benefit of being better and then degrades, and then het gets another boost and resets and gets better in the next push off. Repeat. It's like arguing that any good elite swimmer can make a 25yd pool work. Sure. Of course. And any good runner can achieve their potential on a flat or rolling course. But a less good runner benefits more (relative to their own performance) in the rolling run course. Ie, I know for myself when it's just the right amount of rolling, I run it faster than I would if it's flat, as the hills give me a queue to pickup the pace on the descents and the flats I settle in too easily.

Same on the pool. Form will tend to degrade in a longer pool right? The more time you spend improving in the weak area of the swim the more chance of improving it.

Jack Kelly had a guy on recently (Martin Van Riel I think) who mentioned that when he stops swimming long course, he takes a small step backwards. I would have to check. I think it was Martin.

Form degrades as we fatigue. This happens in all sports. Look at Sanders run as the perfect example. On the bike the form shows up as a slower cadence.
Yes, pushing off a wall helps one get back into position (form?). Although one’s form will look different at 3000m than at 1500m.
The longer and harder one trains, the longer one holds form. This will help Lionel! How much? Probably not much, but will also help him, very slightly, at the end of the run.
I would not bet Lionel becomes top 5 in the world. I don’t think he’ll ever be in the front pack of swimmers and one needs to be, or very close, to win against the big boys.
25m pool vs 50m vs open water will not change his swim significantly.

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Team Zoot So Cal

as always it depends ie what do you think is harder to swim 8 k in a 25 yard pool or 1 k in 50 meter pool.
10 x 400 yards in a 25 yard pool with 15 sec rest vs 200 m in a 50 m pool with 30 sec rest.
and then of course it depends on somebodies swim profile. ie 50 m vs 200 m vs 1,5k times .
swimming 50 meter in a 25 m pool with a parachute or 50 meter with fins in a 50 meter pool and we did not even talk intensity ,
at the end of the day lionel does not have the take out speed not even in the first 25 yards while if you would put him in the 2nd pack after 400 m he would stay there for a good time,
he was 25 meter down after 100 meter in in arena games even after 10 meters he was already gone yet he close the gap a bit in the next 2 x 200 meter swims

It is counter-intuitive but really doing the bulk of your training in a short pool is the ideal environment for nearly every swimmer, and especially someone on Lionel's level. The shorter pool is the best place to hone your body alignment and center of mass (lets just call that posture) at faster paces.

Someone - may have been you - mentioned learning to push off the wall efficiently doesn't help in Open Water. Again, this is counter intuitive, but actually learning that skill really really does help. Good posture off the walls teaches good posture in the water. I don't want to be to simplistic - and I know I've said this before - but have 8 people lineup and push off the wall and I'll predict order finish in a 3800M ows with a high degree of accuracy.

One of the positive things I have found about LS is his no limits approach and open willingness to take on the best.

He often states what drives him is racing the best.

But his turning his back on the PTO is the exact opposite of that.

Last September he was all in on middle distance.

Then he finds out the PTO are making this series with the top athletes and now he's all in on ironman.

This is avoiding racing the best and it's a shame.

Otoh 2024 might be his best ever chance of landing a big IM title. Most of the top athletes will be occupied with the PTO. He'll have far fewer contenders to race against.

Sadly, I think that's why he's chosen this path for 2024.

It's the opposite of "no limits".

The women will be even worse - from what I understand the top 16 are all racing the PTO series. Ironman face massive dilution of standard.