I saw a 58cm frameset in my LBS this weekend.

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Suffer Well.

I think the reason Zabriske went down has more to do with a knee hitting an elbow than anything else.

Thanks for the update Gerard, I almost changed my order on my P3C after reading Tom D's article. I think you would know more about this subject, although Tom might not admit to that.

A friend of mine did change his order, looks like he should not have now.

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"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

Gerard,

In your opinion you could fit Tom D on the 54 with a correct fit?

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"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

I've never seen Tom on his 53cm P3SL, but if it fits him well, I can get him fit the same on a P3C. Maybe he needs a 5mm shorter stem, but he doesn't appear to have a very short stem now so I doubt that would hurt him. As I said, I've never seen him on his P3 SL, so maybe I would put him on a 51cm P3C, but that just depends on his current fit. Remember that with the P3 SL we didn't really have an option for Tom to go smaller than the 53 (unless he would go to 650c wheels), so there is a really wide range of people riding the 53cm frame (and so it becomes difficult to just predict based on that size what somebody should ride in the P3C, now that we have the 51cm and the 54cm that could potentially work.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Thanks Gerard,

I ride a 55 P3 and was looking at upgrading to a P3C and thought the 54 would work, until I read Tom's article and was a bit confused to what size would work for me. I ride a carbon Kestrel Talon road set up and like the carbon feel, so I thought the P3C would be great for long races as I love my P3.

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"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

Gerard, you're killing about 1/2 of the threads on ST with this statement!

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber

Gerard...any plans to offer the P3SL in size 51 with 700 ?

Also another question. Will the P3SL have longer chain stays in the future in line with the P3C ? I think the 1 cm longer chain stays on the P3C would improve the shifting compared to the P3SL, although the rear drop out would hang "further behind your" ass and thereby reduce some of the handling benefits in the tri position.

Thanks Gerard for pointing out for us your objections to Tom's article. However, my conclusion from this discussion is that if someone experienced like Tom is having a hard time finding out which P3 C size (if any) fits him, that means that the bike fit of the P3 C is tough. And Gerard, I don't think you will be able to make the bike fit of everyone that buys the P3 C!

Amen!

Amen again.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom and Gerard,

What about a photo makes it difficult to do a good fit? Is it finding the correct angles by locating the specific joints or is it less analytical and more fitter-rider dicussions?

Thanks.

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Suffer Well.

I think you are drawing the wrong conclusion. The P3C has a very wide range of fit options. So for example the 51 and the 54cm overlap a bit in people they can fit. It's not that Tom has trouble fitting on a P3C, it's that he fits on two. Sure, one may fit slightly better than the other, but both fit fine. That's a much better problem than to have none that really fit. I think Tom will agree that his problem with the P3C is a problem of riches.

I'm not saying Tom can fit on everything from a 48 to a 61 as long as he gets the right stem and seatpost (that is true but only if you consider fit narrowly as getting the guy in the right position, not if you consider handling of the bike) but Tom can more than likely fit on a 51 and a 54 and get very good handling on both. Maybe he likes the 51 better (bit more weight on the front wheel, etc) than the 54, maybe the reverse, but that's really a very personal preference in the handling department.

As for making a P3C fit for everybody who buys one, I guess I don't have the time to do it but in almost every case it can. We take these things to test ride demos at Ironman, and I have never had to tell somebody to go away without a test ride. We honestly are always able to set it up properly. so if you bought a P3C, come visit me at Ironman (I think Florida is the first one I will be at again).

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Well, the remote fit is tough anyway (from measurements or photos), but the big problem is the distortions of the photo. The angle of the shot can really have an impact on how the position looks. It would be nice to do an experiment and have somebody sit still on a trainer and then take ten shots from different angles. In most cases I think you would find that every photo would get critiqued differently.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

As Gerard is the man who designed and conceived the P3 family and, as thus, higher up the chain of command from me significantly, I would defer, in all matters surrounding Cervelo bikes, to his recommendation.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Huh?

OH... right before I hit "post reply" I realized you meant to say defer and not "differ"... right? (I hope so, because I have no idea what you're talking about if you meant to say "differ", LOL!)

Thank you Sir (Ma'am), I appreciate your observation/correction. Freudian slip...... :)

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Yes, since there were differing opinions Dr. Freud came to mind ;-)

I'll take a crack. Part of a good fit is power generation and comfort level. From a decent set of pics someone with a bit of experience you can put someone in a very aero position, but typically the most aero positions are pretty difficult to produce power from. google Chris Boardman for a good example of a very aero position which virtually no one but him can ride (fast) and probably even he couldn't run after.



Styrrell

From Gerard: So for example the 51 and the 54cm overlap a bit in people they can fit. It's not that Tom has trouble fitting on a P3C, it's that he fits on two.



given that there is usually overlap in fittings, what is the general rule in regards to choosing one of two frame sizes that fit you well? given gerard's note on "aggressiveness" of frame sizes, one could be led to believe that generally, i repeat, generally a larger frame may be better (all else equal).

Okay, I think I understand, but how would someone doing a fit in person see this? A powermeter? If it is a powermeter, then a photo with power produced would produced in that position would provide the same info.

I think that the detail of the measurements is the biggest factor-- now if Gerard, Tom or there peers were accessible.

Thanks.

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Suffer Well.

Personally, I would rather go with the smaller to two options if I was in between a 51 and a 54 (which is exactly the scenario I am in). Like Tom, I am on a P3SL 53, but if they offered the same bike in a 51 that is what I would chose, and I'd likely just us a 120 mm stem instead of the current 100 mm stem. At 89 mm for the the head tube of the P3SL in 53, even if Cervelo made a 51, I suspect the head tube would stay at 89 and only the top tube would get shorter.

Dev

Devashish,

How tall are you and what is your inseam?

I'm 5'6" with a 32" inseam (saddle height is 69 cm, or 33.8"), shoe size 9.5 (people forget that shoe size affects saddle fore/aft as well as saddle height. Pedal system is Shimano SPD-R which has a relatively low stack height in the pedal/cleat system, although not as low as speedplay or Time.

I have the 3 mm of spacers on the P3SL size 53 with a 100mm stem that rises 7 degrees from horizontal when on the bike (ie minus 10 degree stem). I could like remove all the spacers and use a minuus 17 degree stem (parallel to ground) which would result in another 1.5 cm total drop in the front end to get a bit more aero, but I'll save that for the off season. Right now, my saddle is set up at 78 degrees (nose of saddle right over BB), saddle height of 69 cm (arcsin(14.25/69)). My saddle to armrest drop is a touch over 10 cm. My nose of saddle to centre of bar clamp distance is 48 cm.