That is among the most informative, educational, and helpful articles I've read about buying a tri bike. The lesson is applicable to other bikes, as well.

Nicely done.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

so since i think my 55 04 p3sl fits pretty good ..then i might consider a 56p3c if i upgrade??

maybe i should wait for a 06 p3c..they might make some changes??

Thank you very much. I also need to acknowledge a fine customer, Mr. Brad Holden, who graciously allowed us to use his photos and his bike (and his sweet Hummer H3 as a back drop) during his visit to get fitted for a P3C.

Thanks for making the trip Brad!

Also thanks to Aderhold and Kim.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Thanks for the overview of the P3C. I'm getting fitted on Tuesday to my P3C, so it gives me some things to look for.



Also, small correction to your overview "Action Tom" ;-) (meta name). The title tag in your source code should be changed from R2.5 to P3C or P3 Carbon. ;-) Just trying to help.

from the review:
"One criticism, if you like to ride with your saddle slightly off center, angled to one side or the other, you can’t do that on a P3 Carbon. The saddle must be in straight orientation to the frame."

that wouldn't be a criticism for me. More like, "for those of you too uncoordinated to put your saddle on straight, the P3C is the bike for you..."

Great research and very well put together Tom. Even a "layman" like myself can understand the majority of what is said and described. Makes me wonder though...............did I select the perfect size frame for my body ? Oh well , too late now :)

Thanks for providing such an value added service to us guys for free.

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

"When he 54cm did arrive for me I did a test fitting and found its proportions were too large."

Tom - what about the proportions on the 54 being too large made the 51 fit better?

Thanks for the review.

You've bested yourself again Tom.

What an excellent thought provoking article. Exceptionally well written and layman friendly as always. Keep up the good work.

I'd love to see how the 54cm P3C fits compared to a 54cm P2K in both 650/700 designations, since I ride a 54.

Tom, what is your saddle height and also drop from saddle to pads on your P3sl?

Hi Turq,

Good question. I will apologize in advance for the subjective nature of my answer.

In short, it was a case of "Too much bike, not enough dude..."

While Gerard is often a fan of saying something like, "I can ride a 54cm or a 58cm..." when discussing the difference in size I beg to differ (and hope I haven't grossly mis-paraphrased him there).

To get my proper position on the 54cm frame I had to use a 80 mm stem. It felt like there was a lot of bike under me. The thing felt absurdly long and oddly large. It turned like a barge and felt like I was a passenger. I once had a 747 captain describe to me that steering a 747 on the ground is like driving a five-story building. That's what this felt like.

On the 51 cm the fit was nice, nimble and compact. A trifle too compact. It was an angry little bike. It want to twitch and squiggle and turn. I was riding a roller skate. A unicycle in the prone position. It was better to be sure, and very racy. But it just wasn't tame enough.

Now, enter my 53 cm Cervelo P3SL which was right down the middle of the 51cm and 54 cm P3C. Mmmmm. Perfect. Not too small... not too large. All the calculations and measurements "fell" onto that bike perfectly and it handles, rides and steers like a dream. It is an extension of me. Quite nice.

I don't like to generalize about materials because fit is more significant- and the difference in fit is what makes the 53cm P3SL a much better choice for me than either a 51 cm P3C or a 54 cm P3C. As Gerard may say- any of those bikes would work for me, it is a question of which one I feel is best for me, and that is a matter for the tape measure to demonstrate....

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Here you go:

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Not to steal any P3 thunder here Tom, but the new Javelin Barolo's are coming, and are oh-so-sweet

The fit is the same as the Arcole, and it may be a match made in heaven for you

(Just a little bug in your ear)

Hmmmmmmmm.....:)

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Have you heard any word on delivery of 58 P3C's?

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"The more you sweat today, the less you bleed tomorrow"

When you angle the seat 5-15 degrees right or left it takes pressure off of sensitive parts when posistioned forward on the seat. Tiny sacrifice. Sweet review very informative, thanks!

Hey Tom,

That looks to be like a huge stack of spacers, riser stem and riser blocks on the aero bars.

What gives, does all of that stuff effect the handling or put lots of forces against the fork not the head tube?

K

Thanks Tom,

It sounds like what you are saying is that you need to get fit at a Cervelo dealer that has options. I.E. multiple sizes of P3 and P3carbon, and then get the one that fits best?

Tom,

thanks for helping us understand a little more about the P3 C. I found the discussion of your case extremely useful as it calls attention to the fact that the P3 C, despite being such a nice bike, is not a bike for everyone. Would you mind posting your body measurements so that those facing the 54/51 size dilemma (as I am) can have a clue of which way to go?

Read the article and it led me to ask another question, since it was all about fit and handling.

Tom mentioned:

1)Smaller frames are sometimes required for fitting some people's build

2)The smaller frames were a bit "aggressive" in handling compared to the larger ones.



I just was wondering if those two characteristics of the P3C had anyting to do with Zabriske going down in the TTT in France. I do understand that he is not the best pack rider, but does anyone think that maybe there was a contribution due to the bike he was riding?

Corrections on Tom's article:

However, as the rider trends toward the steep end of the fit envelope they may be better served to transition down a frame size to the 54 centimeter frame to avoid having to use too short of a handlebar stem.

Actually, the opposite is true. As you move steeper, you move your body forward and closer to the headtube requiring a longer stem, not a shorter one. So if anything, you would need to move up, not down a size.

The 53 cm P3SL has a total top tube length of 56 cm measured center to center. The 54cm P3 Carbon has a top tube length of 58 cm measured center to center, partially due to the thickness or depth of the seat tube.

This is a completely meaningless comparison as you indicate yourself you don't really know where to measure to (center of the seattube, widest point of the seattube). Of course, none of these make sense, it is all about the line between the bb and the seatpost clamp (in either the forard or rearward position). and guess what happens when you do that - you get exactly the effective toptube numbers that are listed. Do the measurement to the seatpost clamps and you will see that they are identical, there is no difference between the P3 SL and the P3C. The difference you are measuring just shows that we have pushed the seattube/post even more rearwards and upright, so that it ends up with the seatpost in the same spot while covering a bigger portion of the rear wheel. To illustrate the silliness, just look at your own pictures. It clearly shows that the 53cm P3 SL has a longer tube than the 54cm P3C. so either your measurement is wrong or your photos are wrong, or maybe it is just another proof that you cannot tell diddly squat from a photo and so people shouldn't be fitted from photos, and neither should riders or bikes be judged from it.

The 53 cm P3SL had a 52.1 centimeter seat tube from center of bottom bracket to top of seat tube. The 54cm P3 Carbon has a 51.3 centimeter seat tube from center of bottom bracket to top of seat tube. That means the “smaller” P3SL in 53cm is actually 8 millimeters larger than the 54cm P3C.

Actually, that would be a really dumb way to measure. The P3 SL requires a seattube collar, the P3C does not as it is incorporated in the toptube. That extension has nothing to do with small or big. If you measure from the bb to the center or the top of the toptube, not the top of the seattube, you won't have that same finding.

I’ve done a number of fittings on the 51cm, 54cm and 56cm P3 Carbons. In two instances the people who bought 54cm frames were switched onto 51cm frames. In my opinion, the P3C has a tendency to run large.

This is a vague statement, and for most people untrue. The P3 Carbon runs a bit higher, but not longer than the P3 (SL). So it doesn't run big for the vast majority of people, it runs the same as the P3 (SL), with with a spacer less than before (or a slightly bigger angle on the stem) to get to the right bar height.

Final point: I can set up Tom on a P3C so that it will fit exactly the same as his P3 SL. I've done it for 25 CSC riders, I can do it for Tom as well. Of course, fitting yourself is not that easy as you are lacking the perspective (I don't fit myself, I have somebody else do it), but the notion that the P3C would fit differently is incorrect. Let's set up a time at Interbike, Tom.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

you can still do that. Most saddles will allow some "adjustment".

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Actually, smaller frames get less agressive in handling. We are in the midst of a pretty cool bike handling mathematical modeling exercise, and when you look at the dynamic handling curve for a size run, they get a bit less agressive for the smaller sizes.I don't think that had anything to do with Zabriskie either way, as he wasn't on a small frame to begin with.

Sastre is the only one on a small frame (51cm) and it seemed to handle well for him in the Vuelta prologue on a twisty course (fourth place, not bad for a climber).

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

I saw a 58cm frameset in my LBS this weekend.

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Suffer Well.

I think the reason Zabriske went down has more to do with a knee hitting an elbow than anything else.

Thanks for the update Gerard, I almost changed my order on my P3C after reading Tom D's article. I think you would know more about this subject, although Tom might not admit to that.

A friend of mine did change his order, looks like he should not have now.

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"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

Gerard,

In your opinion you could fit Tom D on the 54 with a correct fit?

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"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

I've never seen Tom on his 53cm P3SL, but if it fits him well, I can get him fit the same on a P3C. Maybe he needs a 5mm shorter stem, but he doesn't appear to have a very short stem now so I doubt that would hurt him. As I said, I've never seen him on his P3 SL, so maybe I would put him on a 51cm P3C, but that just depends on his current fit. Remember that with the P3 SL we didn't really have an option for Tom to go smaller than the 53 (unless he would go to 650c wheels), so there is a really wide range of people riding the 53cm frame (and so it becomes difficult to just predict based on that size what somebody should ride in the P3C, now that we have the 51cm and the 54cm that could potentially work.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Thanks Gerard,

I ride a 55 P3 and was looking at upgrading to a P3C and thought the 54 would work, until I read Tom's article and was a bit confused to what size would work for me. I ride a carbon Kestrel Talon road set up and like the carbon feel, so I thought the P3C would be great for long races as I love my P3.

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"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

Gerard, you're killing about 1/2 of the threads on ST with this statement!

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber

Gerard...any plans to offer the P3SL in size 51 with 700 ?

Also another question. Will the P3SL have longer chain stays in the future in line with the P3C ? I think the 1 cm longer chain stays on the P3C would improve the shifting compared to the P3SL, although the rear drop out would hang "further behind your" ass and thereby reduce some of the handling benefits in the tri position.

Thanks Gerard for pointing out for us your objections to Tom's article. However, my conclusion from this discussion is that if someone experienced like Tom is having a hard time finding out which P3 C size (if any) fits him, that means that the bike fit of the P3 C is tough. And Gerard, I don't think you will be able to make the bike fit of everyone that buys the P3 C!

Amen!

Amen again.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom and Gerard,

What about a photo makes it difficult to do a good fit? Is it finding the correct angles by locating the specific joints or is it less analytical and more fitter-rider dicussions?

Thanks.

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Suffer Well.

I think you are drawing the wrong conclusion. The P3C has a very wide range of fit options. So for example the 51 and the 54cm overlap a bit in people they can fit. It's not that Tom has trouble fitting on a P3C, it's that he fits on two. Sure, one may fit slightly better than the other, but both fit fine. That's a much better problem than to have none that really fit. I think Tom will agree that his problem with the P3C is a problem of riches.

I'm not saying Tom can fit on everything from a 48 to a 61 as long as he gets the right stem and seatpost (that is true but only if you consider fit narrowly as getting the guy in the right position, not if you consider handling of the bike) but Tom can more than likely fit on a 51 and a 54 and get very good handling on both. Maybe he likes the 51 better (bit more weight on the front wheel, etc) than the 54, maybe the reverse, but that's really a very personal preference in the handling department.

As for making a P3C fit for everybody who buys one, I guess I don't have the time to do it but in almost every case it can. We take these things to test ride demos at Ironman, and I have never had to tell somebody to go away without a test ride. We honestly are always able to set it up properly. so if you bought a P3C, come visit me at Ironman (I think Florida is the first one I will be at again).

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Well, the remote fit is tough anyway (from measurements or photos), but the big problem is the distortions of the photo. The angle of the shot can really have an impact on how the position looks. It would be nice to do an experiment and have somebody sit still on a trainer and then take ten shots from different angles. In most cases I think you would find that every photo would get critiqued differently.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

As Gerard is the man who designed and conceived the P3 family and, as thus, higher up the chain of command from me significantly, I would defer, in all matters surrounding Cervelo bikes, to his recommendation.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Huh?

OH... right before I hit "post reply" I realized you meant to say defer and not "differ"... right? (I hope so, because I have no idea what you're talking about if you meant to say "differ", LOL!)

Thank you Sir (Ma'am), I appreciate your observation/correction. Freudian slip...... :)

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Yes, since there were differing opinions Dr. Freud came to mind ;-)

I'll take a crack. Part of a good fit is power generation and comfort level. From a decent set of pics someone with a bit of experience you can put someone in a very aero position, but typically the most aero positions are pretty difficult to produce power from. google Chris Boardman for a good example of a very aero position which virtually no one but him can ride (fast) and probably even he couldn't run after.



Styrrell

From Gerard: So for example the 51 and the 54cm overlap a bit in people they can fit. It's not that Tom has trouble fitting on a P3C, it's that he fits on two.



given that there is usually overlap in fittings, what is the general rule in regards to choosing one of two frame sizes that fit you well? given gerard's note on "aggressiveness" of frame sizes, one could be led to believe that generally, i repeat, generally a larger frame may be better (all else equal).

Okay, I think I understand, but how would someone doing a fit in person see this? A powermeter? If it is a powermeter, then a photo with power produced would produced in that position would provide the same info.

I think that the detail of the measurements is the biggest factor-- now if Gerard, Tom or there peers were accessible.

Thanks.

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Suffer Well.

Personally, I would rather go with the smaller to two options if I was in between a 51 and a 54 (which is exactly the scenario I am in). Like Tom, I am on a P3SL 53, but if they offered the same bike in a 51 that is what I would chose, and I'd likely just us a 120 mm stem instead of the current 100 mm stem. At 89 mm for the the head tube of the P3SL in 53, even if Cervelo made a 51, I suspect the head tube would stay at 89 and only the top tube would get shorter.

Dev

Devashish,

How tall are you and what is your inseam?

I'm 5'6" with a 32" inseam (saddle height is 69 cm, or 33.8"), shoe size 9.5 (people forget that shoe size affects saddle fore/aft as well as saddle height. Pedal system is Shimano SPD-R which has a relatively low stack height in the pedal/cleat system, although not as low as speedplay or Time.

I have the 3 mm of spacers on the P3SL size 53 with a 100mm stem that rises 7 degrees from horizontal when on the bike (ie minus 10 degree stem). I could like remove all the spacers and use a minuus 17 degree stem (parallel to ground) which would result in another 1.5 cm total drop in the front end to get a bit more aero, but I'll save that for the off season. Right now, my saddle is set up at 78 degrees (nose of saddle right over BB), saddle height of 69 cm (arcsin(14.25/69)). My saddle to armrest drop is a touch over 10 cm. My nose of saddle to centre of bar clamp distance is 48 cm.

"Personally, I would rather go with the smaller to two options if I was in between a 51 and a 54 (which is exactly the scenario I am in). "

You're relatively long legged and short torso in proportion. The 51 cm might a lot of make sense for you. I tower above you by a whole 3.5 inches with the same inseam, so the larger frame would be more for me, which is what I ride in my P2K.

Yeah, you are correct. You'd have to go with a super duper long stem to get the 51 to fit for sure !

I went through all this before I settled on a size 54 P3C. I tried out the 56 and would have had to push the saddle all the way forward and go with a fairly short stem to make it work. My measurements are as follows if it is of any help. I agree with Tom -- it is a difficult bike to size.

Height (Length) 178 cm

Inseam 82.5 cm

Torso Length 62.5 cm

Shoe Size 10.5

I would look at something else if it concerns a tri bike (different for road). How forward are you in your position where, if anywhere, do you plan to go with your position. Say you are riding in a medium forward position and you can choose between two sizes. If you have plans to go further forward in the future, I would buy the bike that can accomodate that (which is usually the bigger of the two). If you don't plan to do that and maybe even plan to go backwards, then the smaller frame would be a better idea.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Power is not that much of a concern actually, as it is actually quite difficult to seriously curtail someone's power through positioning. I mean, you have to be a really lousy fitter to really hurt somebody's power output. If you combine that with potential aero gains, it becomes even more of a non-issue. Of course, this all assumes training in the final position, not setting somebody up the night before Ironman (though I have done that as well and strangely enough, with very good results).

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

"When you angle the seat 5-15 degrees right or left it takes pressure off of sensitive parts when posistioned forward on the seat. "[/reply]

"you can still do that. Most saddles will allow some "adjustment". "
------------------------------

Gerard,

How do you make this adjustment? Can I do this at home, or is this better left to the pros?

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Gerard,

Just curious what sizes in the P3C is the CSC team riding? I understand they all ride the bike in the rearward position, but it would be interesting to compare measurments and sizes with the pros..

Big Red,

Zabriskie appears to me to using the forward seat post position. See (I hope the picture comes through, but if not : http://cervelo.com/wallpaper/w008_1024.jpg )

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

David,

Thanks for the picture! Yep, it sure looks like it. Forward it is for Zabriskie. I thought they were required to ride in the rearward position due to UCI rules and they just moved to the tip of the saddle to get more forward. Interesting..

I belive that his saddle is cut off, so he truly is sitting on the point!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Bigred3- Do you have picutes of your bike set up? We are almost identical in size. Can you also provide your fit dimensions? Saddle height, drop to pads, set back, etc?

bigred,

i am 5 feet 10 (i guess 180 centimeters) with an inseam of 32.5 inches. The fitters I met with told me to consider the 51 and the 54 p3c. I ultimately decided on the 54 and love it. It is amazing how we are the same height more or less and the range of bike we were looking at was between 51 and 56. I feel encouraged that we both ended up with the same size frmae.

I do have pictures, I am not sure how to load them on this forum -- snapfish? pm me and I'll send you all the measurements/pics. I was professionally fit by a FIST certified fitter.

The headtube on the 54 is pretty short (10.5), so I have all the spacers in, but I was able to turn the stem around. I'm sure everyone on this forum will tell me it is set up like cruiser bike. If the top tube wasn't so long, I would have selected the 56 and the longer headtube (12.5) and probably would have been able to set it up with fewer spacers. I go any lower on the bike and it compromises my hip angle.

David Z is about 72 inches or 183cm tall. It looks like he has the FSA integrated bars with a 90mm stem and no spacers. He is pretty far forward... especially for a UCI legal bike and has his seat clamp in the forward position. Looking the frame it looks like he is on a 54cm--(best guess, based upon size and orientation of the "P3 Carbon" decal on the seat tube.)

I recall reading that Ivan Basso who is 181 cm tall- 71 inches- rides a 54cm and also has his seat in the forward position.

Given that both of these guys ride with no spacers and for relatively short distances--(compared to IM bike length), I would guess they could have been fit on the 56cm, but are able to get lower on the 54cm.

Bjorn rides a 56cm and is as tall as Ivan, however he is lower than everyone and has his seat in the rear position.

Clearly leg length to overall height is important and I have not accounted for that in this summary as that is not readily available. Additionally, saddle to handlebar drop has an impact on the "correct" top tube length.

I am not sure if this makes all of this clearer or more confusing.

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Suffer Well.

Well, although the CSC riders are good example of how people can fit more than one size, I don't think they are necessarily the template to follow for most triathlete. If Zabriskie were a triathlete, I would probably put him on a 56cm frame. But as a time trialer, he is on a 54cm. Same goes for most CSC guys, they are on one size smaller than you would think based on their size. But of course they are in a situation where they are looking for specific handling characteristics (combined with the cycling experience that they have) that is a bit different from the average triathlete. It's easyto make jokes about Zabriskie in that regard, but of course he is still head and shoulders over anybody on this forum when it comes to bike handling.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Can you please be more specific about what you mean by that?

Well, they ride a road bike 330 days/yr, if not more, so they are very used to the handling of that bike. What they are looking for is a bit of a mix between "as much as possible like my road bike" and "as good as possible for a TT bike". Going a little bit smaller helps with that, as the shorter frame will make it handle a bit more like the road bikes they are used to. And of course, they also have quite extreme positions so it is nice for them to have the shorter headtubes that go along with that.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Gerard,

You have said many things about fitting a P3C that interest me.

You say Sastre is the only CSC rider on a 51 P3C. How tall is he and what is his saddle height? Would a rider 178cm with a 73.0 cm saddle height need a 54?

You also state that it is pretty hard to curtail a persons power output via fitting. Does that mean that you tend to put riders as low as you can get them? From photos that I have seen, only Christian VanDeVelde seems to have much in the way of spacers under the stem and all of the CSC riders that I have seen photos of sit halfway forward on the saddle if not more forward than that. Would it be fair to assume that you slam the front end low, chop the front couple of centimeters off of the saddle so that you can get by the UCI regs. at 5 cm behind the bb, and then find a saddle height that works with the saddle in that position?

I am not trying to criticize, I am trying to learn. I am having a hard time achieving a fast position within UCI regs. and I am trying to decide what measures that I need to take.

great read

Oh yeah, and cut the straight vision bars short enough so the forearm, elbow, and shoulder are close to 90 degree angles.

Where you ride relative to the BB is an often overlooked measurement when selecting frame size. As Gerard mentions above it's very important.

I ride a 56 P3C and it's a perfect fit. I am 184cm with a seat height of 77cm. Saddle is level with BB and my drop is 16.5cm. Stem is 100mm which I prefer on a TT bike. If I rode 5cm behind the BB the 56 may be long for me.

Having an aggressive drop (for IM) has not impacted on my power output. People often think it's a trade off between power, aerodynamics and comfort. In my experience this is not the case. A position is highly trainable so that power can be maintained even with very good aerodynamics. I am more comfortable at 16.5cm then I was at 8cm and my power is the same.

So decide where you ride (or will ride) relative to the BB when choosing a frame.

Re. Sastre, there are a couple of other riders who will probably end up on a 51cm, but right now Sastre is the only one simply because only the nine Tour riders got P3Cs, the rest rides on P3 SLs. I believe Carlos is 5'7, and to be honest in general a 5'7 triathlete would likely end up on a 51cm as well, so no difference there.

Of people we fit on a 54cm frame, the average height is 5'10 (which is exactly your 178cm). The average saddle height is 72cm. This does not mean that everything 5'10 rides a 54cm, as obviously it depends on how that height is distributed (if 5' of that in in your neck, a 54cm frame will likely be too big :-) and what your position is on the bike. The average CSC rider on a 54cm is probably 2" taller, and has his saddle maybe an inch higher.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Gerard,

I know we are getting into some pretty detailed information. Do you have the average inseam and torso lengths for the CSC riders on the 54 P3C? Thank you for all the information on this topic, it has been very informative and interesting.

Thanks, that is good information. It looks like Basso and Zabriske are on pretty small bikes (54?) and they are 5'11 and 6'? But they have long arms and legs. I don't know about Basso, but I know Zabriske can produce power in pretty much any position so the lower the better.

So, do you expect riders of 5'10 and 73 cm to ride a 51 if they are short torso and 54 if longer torso, or does ability to rotate hips and lower back flexibility enter into the equation?