Doesn't matter, especially not in the context jonnyo is using them.

Although, there are guys in masters who do a full on 6 beat kick with the pullbuoy on. That gets pretty annoying to other swimmers.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

That was my thought too.

At least to me, the kick is a part of the stroke and a rhythm that needs to be practiced.

jonnyo, maybe you could clarify this. Do you think there should be a light kick some of the time while using the PB?

jaretj

That's my issue with using a buoy. Just had this conversation with my coach last night. Using the buoy removes the kick, which at least for me is a critical component for timing and body rotation. When I'm doing sets with a buoy, I'm 10-15s/100yds slower. Those sessions are brutal.

I've never heard of someone kicking while using the buoy. I can't imagine trying to kick while keeping the buoy secure.

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-Andrew

My kick starts up in my core and I feel it in the hip flexors so there is no possible way I can generate a kick with a buoy. I actually find it super easy to shut the kick off with a buoy in that sense, just keep my core support rigid and make a uni-leg where I can actually feel my insteps touching. I suppose I could manufacture some kind of thigh kick if I tried, but that's not really how I was taught to kick.

This thread has been painful to read. Perhaps if I wasn't so stubborn I would improve a little as a triathlete.

I will head to the pool today with goggles and a speedo. Nothing else. (well, I MIGHT where a jacket down to the deck, since it is only 55 out, and my Floridian skin is very thin)

To be fair, there are some great triathletes (name dropping commences.. NOW.... Alicia Kaye, Nina Kraft, Jarrod Shoemaker to name a few) that swim at my pool.. And they all use toys.

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Austin Hardy -

gunsbuns...complete respect. I never considered how scary the swim can be until the 70.3 WC...swam in pack for the first 700m of complete mayhem and pain...finished around 32 or something in AG...but never got out of traffic. In local events, it's usually just the first 100m or so. So...afterwards, I have a HUGE respect for guys who are new to the water...especially open water...and swimming in a very scary environment. My bike is like my swim....too bad it's triathlon...the run is getting there...but the guys who struggle in the water...at least you get to feel the joy of passing people....my last 70.3, which i qualified for Austria..I wanted to celebrate wildly when I FINALLY passed someone on the run! (Yeah...not cool to do that and I wasn't sure if it were just temporary)...but the run is a steady fall backward where I just try to hang on.

This winter season (in Taiwan...not exactly arctic!) training is all about the run! Big respect for all the fast runners in slowtwitch land.

Pretty sure you already know this, but a really good kick comes from the knees. I'll occasionally swim with a pullbouy, with kick, just to remind myself what it feels like. (easy to do it wrong though). On most pull sets I just let my legs do whatever they want, I'm mostly focused on keeping my torso straight.

A good breaststroke drill is to swim with a pullbuoy (with full breast kick). I can't do it, because I'm a terrible breaststroker.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Hmmm. Well I'm certainly happy to admit when I don't know and I may not know.....might be doing it wrong! When my coach tore it all down and taught me from scratch he taught me to to think of my entire leg as a whip more or less. Loose and floppy ankles are the tip of the whip. My hips are where I was taught the power resides and the kick builds little by little as it travels donw the chain to the tip of the whip...smooth and flowing kicking up and down. He had me do a lot of rotational vertical kick drills in the diving well to learn that. Certainly I have knee bend, but it's nowhere near where my kick starts.

So you are saying my kick should start at the knees? This is a big deal b/c I would probably have to unlearn everything that has brought me a ton of success. Maybe we are just losing info in translation....tha't entirely possible b/c I suck at describing things in text.

Not really. it is a whip, but for a lot of folks who were taught to keep their knees straight, it isn't a bad thing to reinforce the "looseness"...

think of your thigh as the "arm" in a whip motion. that's where you get all the power. if your knees are straight, that power gets lost. but if you can effectively use a knee bend and get that whip going, (with good ankle flexibility) then that puts the top of your foot into a vertical alignment that can push water backwards instead of down.

but if you tend to do a bicycle kick, ignore everything I just said....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Hmm well. I think I'm probably just going to stick with what I'm doing b/c it works and I'm not 100 percent certain I follow, but sort of.....trust me it's ME not you. I can be a moRanS with this unless it's right in front of me in person. When he started with me I didn't have a kick of any kind it was embarrassing.

Kicking was always a mystery to me until my coach told me to 'freaking relax and stop trying to confuse something simpler than a push up'. Once I relaxed it felt like walking down the street more or less, that and my ankles let go of a ton of tension and just worked great. I have pretty doggone flexible ankles now and don't need much knee bend at all to get the top of my foot oriented well.

And thanks for takign the time to explain that I really value your input on all things aqua world!

i think what lots of people do is kick from the knee with the pull buoy like if they were in a wetsuit. I have no issue with this, and i see it a lot when we start pressing down and asking for race pace work. It s definitly not a strong kick but it s there in support and feel more ''natural'' to swim that way.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

dont have to tell me twice ;)

bring on that buoy!

you are in this situation where your position is excellent and natural. The pull buoy put you in a almost awkward one. If you want to do something very specific for open water, there is a few models of PB that are extra large and boyent. I personally dont like them but some do.

I love specificity and been in canada, we pass most of the summer training with wetsuits so we end up having lots of specific work done.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I'll point you to the Grant Hackett video http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=f6qIhkuzTx0#t=31

I "think" we are actually on the same page. What I'm getting at is that a lot of people have been taught to keep their knees straight, so they kick with no knee bend at all. That's pretty ineffective, it's unnatural and tiring. For those folks (and I'm one of them) occasionally kicking with the pull buoy can help to break that habit. It also keeps your thighs from going down too much during the kick, which increases drag.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I think we establish a long time again that i m not a good coach. You made it clear months ago. So please stop ''giving'' me intention in my post and simply ignore them. why waste time with a third tier level coach online. I m not here to get into those argument, just to have good conversation.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Ok we are on the same page. I might have been lucky in that I didnt' have any kick that I consciously thought of so it was easier to ingrain what he wanted me to do. Keeping my thighs in the shadow of my body was part of that process and still is....my ankle flexibility all along had been more than adequate I just didn't know how to get out of my own way more or less. It was amazing to me how the conscious thought to simply 'let go' of the tension allowed my ankles to just say 'ahhhh there we go'. Tensed up they were like cinder blocks. Over the last couple of years my ankles have come a long way with daily stretching. I did have this thought that I needed to point my toes and that was a killer. My ankles actually flex far and away more when limp and relaxed than I can get with a forced point in the water. Water can provide a lot of resistance on the foot....if you let it. I can get them a little flatter sitting on the floor than swimming, but during free a relaxed ankle gives me more bite.

I teach straight leg flutter kicks on land to emphasize the fact that the origin of the kick is in the hips and upper leg, and then move to the pool for the wave, or whip, or whatever you want to call it. I have found that especially with knee down kickers (Mostly AOS), they end up at a middle ground between the two that while it might not be an ideal kick, it is at least acceptable.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

For distance swimming, that's perfectly fine. Kick for propulsion only really comes into play in the shorter events (200m and less), or in a finishing sprint. The rest of the time it drives breathing and balance, and that's about it.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

i guess perhaps i m just lucky...the triathletes i work with done whine, they simple get the work done.[/quote]
My motto #DOTHEWORK

SO yeah, sorry I missed swim today-:(

Trisutto best advice is the 3 Rs. You tube it. Dead on. As are PB, and paddles! Just don't ever ask me to kick again!

See u Thursday.

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@rhyspencer

the 3 R's actually came from Aleksandr Popov's coach.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Cool, didn't know that. . I only saw it you tube Brett style which I will say would annoy the shit out of me on deck. My god shut up already Brett! It's sound advice to be sure.

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@rhyspencer

You're not the only one don't worry.

I agruee jonny but i think The main point for begginers and a pull buoy is to get rid of a kick focus for propulsion and focus on front quadrant swimming. The benefit for begginers would be to get rid of the over kicking which leads to fatigue and excellerated breathing.

Also the article isn't saying the pull buoy builds a fast swimmer it's saying use them if you like them so you my want to swim more hence more work better results. So if you get 5-6 km extra a week because you like to swim fast with gear then do it because you will get faster.

Keep making them work jonny.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I swam over lunch today.. I saw a pull bouy laying over the in the toybox. I grabbed it and got to work.

My main set was 4X500. I did 2 with the buoy, 2 without

Rep 1 6:55, with buoy
Rep 2 6:31, without
Rep 3, 6:54, with buoy
Rep 4, 6:31, without

I was shocked. I assumed that swimming with the buoy would be easier..

What do these splits say about my stroke? is it good? Is it bad? Does it not matter?

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Austin Hardy -

In a broad generalization, if your body position is good, the buoy slows you down; if your body position is bad it speeds you up.