I think the general problem is that we don't understand their motivation for making those comments. They could be tongue/cheek, it could be conditioning the refs for next year, it could be the Clas-issue with 7m, it could be because of a comment made on course, it could be b/c of many other things.....

"We" then take those comments out of context....as do many of the folks in the press. We just don't know.

But, we do know Macca got 2nd and didn't get any penalty. Just like OJ was innocent. Okay...forget that last comment. Just kidding.

Ken:

You got the age group vehicle zone right (15 m to the side, 30 m behind), but I think the pro rule is different (1 m to the side, 15 m behind).

I've heard the side is short so that media can get good profile shots.

Baumgartner from a German Triathlon Magazine points to power data from 2peaks. His point is that there is 30-40 W difference between Faris and some in the pack and his conclusion that no matter if 7m (legal) or less (illegal), it does make a difference.

[url]http://3athlon.2peak.com/srm/srm_kona_2006/hawaii.php[/url]

According to Baumgartner, Macca saw the interview from Stadler and they got into "a hot discussion" at the party after the race.
[url]http://3athlon.blogspot.com/2006/10/diskussion-ber-die-windschattenbox-und.html[/url]

>>There are refs out there, doing their jobs. If they didn't call a foul, there is no foul.

Uhh..no. If the ref doesn't call the foul, it simply means the player got away with it. There's a difference.

Ex. if a defender knowingly hacks the shooter on the elbow while he's going up for the shot, but the ref doesn't see it, that doesn't mean the foul wasn't committed. It just means he wasn't called for it.

Similarly, if a rider consciously drafts the rider in front of him, but is smart enough to drop back every time he sees a draft marshall, that doesn't mean he didn't cheat. It means he didn't get caught.

I'm sure the legal 7M buffer zone will help the riders some, but not nearly as much as we're seeing in the power numbers at 2peak. Faris, who everyone agrees pulled the pack, averages near 280 watts. Cam Brown, who was in the chase pack with Macca, averages 215 for the same overall time as Faris.

Hmm......suspicious.....

Or a badly calibrated powermeter. I've sat in a draft at that distance with a PM. It's 15-20 watts, at most. If Cam rode 215, he would have run <2:40 and won the race, missed feed bag or not.

His HR data was consistent with his other IM rides.

We can argue the semantics all day. I say: no whistle, no foul. Crybabies complain about the refs. Champions don't.

Crybabies complain about the refs. Champions don't.

I see a lot of champions jawing at refs. I see a lot of opposing coaches jawing at refs to not let the 'champion' intimidate them. Jordan, the champion of champions, could badger refs into calling what MJ wanted called, and repeatedly used it to his advantage. I'm not sure there's a highly competitive athlete out there that doesn't complain when a ref/ump misses a call. It's true that champions rarely blame a loss on officiating, but they almost all certainly complain about it.

Truth is, when you win, there's a whole lot less to complain about, and winning erases memories of bad calls.

Again, I don't any highly competitive athlete that has a missed call go against them and says "golly gee whiz, it's just part of the game". ;)

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Ok, so if you are outside the zone then your not drafting. Thats the rules. If by chance you are inside the zone then you are cheating. Every pro that was there would definately let the drafter know as believe it or not there is quite a lot of mutual respect. If Norman and Feris want to change the rules then they should sit down with WTC voice there opinions. If WTC was going to listen to anyone, it probably would be the two past winners. Now about Macca??? Who knows. Marshals are the judge, jury and executioners. If a penalty wasn't called then he didn't cheat as far as the rules are concerned. It will be very obvious when its on TV and if there is anything, don't be surprised if WTC does absolutely nothing.

Doesn't look like 7m to me.

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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.

peope sure want to analyze these things to death...anyone ever done an im and be pissed off that another person didn't work as hard as you because they drafted? it is that simple....happens all the time and this board is filled with such comments after every im...just cause they are pros doesn't mean that they don't have the same reaction as any of us..."that s.o.b. rode my wheel all the way around the course...i don't know how he can live with himself..." that is just what norman and faris are saying...same thing you would as well.

Maybe it was less than 7m. Or it could have been in the middle of a pass, or just before / after an aid station, where it is legal to be in the zone. Still shots don't tell the whole story.

Barry Bonds. It's true, as sad a case as he is.

What can they do? If penalties are visible from a helicopter that can't be discerned on a motorcycle, then maybe we need marshals cruising the course in a fleet of JetRangers. So far, the focus of this thread has been on one part of the problem - the existing draft zone is too small to eliminate the benefit of wind-block and thus encourages riders to push the envelope of legal position on the road.

There is another problem, the current rules can't be enforced, at least with any kind of consistency. Drafting calls are totally subjective, and it's up to the marshal's judgement if an infraction occurs. How much that consistency varies is how much controversy there is surrounding just about every race.

Earlier in this thread I asked who has marshaled a race - nobody responded, so I guess none of you have, or you are too embarrassed to admit it (you get to wear a helmet, if you keep the visor down your friends won't know it's you) Fact is, the drafting rules are virtually impossible to enforce with any degree of accuracy, and if you have ever sat on the back of a moto at 30-40 km/h, 100 or so meters behind a group of cyclists and tried to judge if there is 5 meters or 8 meters between wheels, you would know that the rule is virtually useless not because it doesn't remove the benefit of drafting, but because it can't be enforced!

7 m is all of ten 700 bicycle wheels. I can see 10 700 wheels in that pic between Macca and Norman. Regardless, there is a full motorcade around them and if he was drafting he'd be nailed. Pics are always deceiving too. He may have just been passed and was moving back to the legal distance.

I've chatted to Jason at a race in Malaysia a couple of years ago and raced both of my IM's "with him" ( although about 3-4 hours behind ! ).

An absolutely classy guy , who will talk with absolutely anybody and as humble as pie. In actual fact , my wife found him to be shy !

Adittionally , he's built like a brick shithouse !

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

I don't know about you Dev, but I was about 1/3 of the way up to Hawi when the pros were coming down. Stadler was way out in front with Lieto chasing. A few minutes behind was a huge pack of pros all riding pretty tight - not just rear-to-front wheel but also along side each other. I talked to a couple other guys and eveyone thought it looked pretty draft friendly.

In fact, this was by far the worst race I've been in with regard to drafting. There were huge packs of riders bunched together for nearly the whole race. I was really disappointed to see how many people chose to ride the race like that.

Faris lead the chase group the entire race, as I witnessed. If there was a triathlete that drafted, it was not Faris.

Were you on the course? According to IMlive there was about an hour where he wasn't in the lead of the chase group...

From Ironman Live:

The lead group shatters
RACETIME: 03:07
Faris Al-Sultan has been spat out the back of the chase group.

Stadler's lead is up to 5:40 over Chris Lieto and Chris McCormack.

Al-Sultan is at 6:05.


The men through mile 55
RACETIME: 03:13
Stadler continues to put the hurt on the guys behind him. Hanging tough is Cameron Brown -- he remains solidly in the chase group.


* Chris Lieto (#18) at 5:40
* Chris McCormack (#6) at 6:40
* Cameron Brown (#2) at 5:45
* Luke Bell (#13) at 5:45
* Tom Evans (#27) at 5:51
* Eneko Llanos (#121) at 5:51
* Faris Al-Sultan (#1) at 6:05
* Craig McKenzie (#29) at 8:27
* Rutger Beke (#4) at 8:38

The men coming back from Hawi
RACETIME: 03:29
Still leading is Normann Stadler (#26).
Lieto is hanging tough in second at 5:32, then we have:
* Luke Bell (#13) at 6:21
* Chris McCormack (#6) at 6:32
* Cameron Brown (#2) at 6:32
* Eneko Llanos (#121) at 6:36
* Tom Evans (#27) at 6:40
* Faris Al-Sultan (#1) at 6:55

The top men through Hawi
RACETIME: 03:45
Top Bike Hawi Men (Time from start)

Place Bike59 Numb Lname Fname City Pro Cnt
===== ======= ==== ============================= ========== === ===
1 3:13:28 26 Stadler, Normann Mannheim GER
2 3:18:59 18 Lieto, Chris Danville CA USA
3 3:19:39 6 McCormack, Chris Sydney NSW AUS
4 3:19:42 13 Bell, Luke Melbourne VIC AUS
5 3:19:44 2 Brown, Cameron Howick Auc NZL
6 3:19:48 31 Vanhoenacker, Marino Brugge BEL
7 3:19:49 27 Evans, Tom Penticton BC CAN
8 3:19:51 121 Llanos, Eneko Vitoria-Ga ARA ESP
9 3:20:07 1 Al-Sultan, Faris Munich GER
10 3:22:37 4 Beke, Rutger Leuven BEL
11 3:22:44 21 Hellriegel, Thomas Bruchsal GER
12 3:23:19 23 Van Lierde, Luc Brugge BEL
13 3:23:40 48 Chabaud, Francois Salon De P FRA
14 3:23:45 35 Lovato, Michael Boulder CO USA
15 3:23:52 53 Bracht, Timo Eberbach GER GER BC CAN

More of the men's race ... through 70 miles
RACETIME: 03:55
Normann Stadler (#26) continues ot pull away from the rest of the men. Lieto has once again pulled clear of the chase group along with Eneko Llanos.

Then there's a good sized group chasing.

* Chris Lieto (#18) at 7:15
* Eneko Llanos (#121) at 7:15
* Faris Al-Sultan (#1) at 7:30
* Cameron Brown (#2) at 7:30
* Chris McCormack (#6) at 7:30
* Luke Bell (#13) at 7:30
* Marino Vanhoenacker (#31) at 7:30
* Tom Evans (#27) at 7:30

I was not in a press car. From what I witnessed from the 5 different view points, Faris was leading the group. Maybe it was coinincidence, fut he was sitting in the front each time he passed me.

I agree - I really think some of you guys should give Stadler a break and also some credit for leading the race from the front. If he's a little bit outspoken, so what? The guy's two times World Champion and now holds the bike record for Hawaii - posting a 4.18 bike split with a 2.55 marathon off the back - that says enough for me...

He's worked his way up to this level over many years of hard work and now he's reaping the rewards. He lead from the front in both 2004 and 2006 and he would have done the same in 2005 if he hadn't had some bad luck with his wheels. So what he got upset and threw his bike away in 2005 and so what he got upset at IM Germany this year when he fell apart on the run after crashing twice on the bike - that's just the way he is and who is anyone else to judge how he should/shouldn't behave? Get yourselves to same level and then crash out or be forced to retire when defending your title and maybe then you can comment.

I was lucky enough to have dinner with Normann prior to IM Germany this year and he came across as a very genuine and humble guy. He was philisophical about what happened in 2005 but obviously very determined to make ammends this year. Maybe I'm a little biased the other way, but I'm delighted he got his second win and I don't blame him for being a little bit outspoken, especially after all the flack he got pre-race about only being a biker and not being able to run etc. Maybe he's not the 'perfect' champion everyone would like and maybe he has a personality that grates with some people, but at the end of the day he's the one at the top of his sport and I think he should get the respect he deserves for what he's achieved.

What you said.

The guy went off the front and dominated a very strong field in the race they all want to win. He crushed them, they can have no excuses.

He deserves all the applause we can throw his way.

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kiwipat

per ardua ad astra

1. 1 picture of many available at our web showing faris, lieto, macca and co.
http://3athlon.blogspot.com/...

2. my thoughts on maccas historical chance to win kona at his weather conditions (german, sorry) and his aim for going to bejing after winning kona....

http://3athlon.blogspot.com/...

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kind regards
Kai Baumgartner

Guys, Normann won on the day no doubt. Macca is however a fair athlete as his previous results in so many races around the world show him leading the bike and heading into the run in first place. The guy can ride a bike. He out rode Hellriegel in Im OZ 2002 and was only a minute behind Walton. There aren't too many triathletes who can ride like Craig Walton, but Macca's proven in many races he's not too far off him. Also let's consider Roth this year where Faris got off the bike with Keirin Doe and Macca rode solo after his flat and still was within striking distance to pass them both. No drafting there. I think Macca has proven time after time he's good on the bike, and maybe a few people are just envious of his overall results and talent. We'd all like to be as good as him........

It's hard to believe all this talk about Macca "cheating". There were draft marshals following the chase pack the whole way. 7m is the rule.

RUMOR HAS IT, however, that Stadler was cheating - drafting off of german tv crews and other media vehicles. The rule for vehicles is that you are at least 30m back and 15 m to the side. I've seen some photos that appear to show Stadler inside the "draft zone". Perhaps video footage would confirm how long he was in the zone. Whether Stadler had any control of this is another issue - but if you are within the zone, you are drafting. We all know that it is impossible for the tv crews to travel at a cyclists' side for a period of time without technically being within the draft zone since the roadway is less than 15m wide for many parts of the course. Yet the media does this - for almost the entire length of the bike ride. I think race marshals should be looking at enforcing the draft rule when vehicles and motorcycles are present, not just other bikers. The draft off a vehicle is much much greater than another cyclist. Casts some doubt on the record breaking 4:18 ride.

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Hoka One One (Hawaii)
facebook.com/hokaoneonehawaii

Seems to me that unless one geats a penalty, by definition, opinions dont matter, there was no called drafting. As Charlie told me, the rules can be used to ones advantage, just another aspect of the game. If you dont get caught, does not matter what anyone things.

And, pretty sure the rules are written that the racer has to stay a certain distance back behind a car, not that the car is forced to speed up.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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