As noted...you need to understand the dynamics of pack-riding at Ironman (legally). As noted....Macca "could" have ridden at 7m the entire time, but yet the pros would be pissed and call it drafting. Why?

• Most of the pros disagree with the wind tunnel conclusions.
• To the point above, the tribal law is perhaps more important than the WTC law
• In a pack, the goal is to catch the leader/chose the pace. If Macca just say in back (I don't know), the pros would say he didn't do his "job" of helping the pack...legally. More like wheelsucking than drafting...but we'll just call it drafting for fun.
• Same example above, he might have been alternating his position in the "peloton" to further his advantage and not working with the pack.
• He might have been drafting when the crews were not around
• I imagine there was plenty of smack-talk occuring

Normann's words were obviously second-hand and he was only protecting his defense for next year. When you're the sheriff in town, you need to sway the vote of the city council. But, coming from Faris....that means quite a bit (to me). Macca would be voted off the island if this was a reality show......

But, Macca is a really cool dude!

Is it really very interesting who is the bether swimmer/biker/runner??

Its al about putting it all together and getting to the finishline 1st is it not?

I would say Norman did that in a fantastic way on saturday!

Clas can do the same in the future, no doubt. But he has to start racing Hawaii. To learn the race.

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Espen Wagener
Kongsberg, Norway

http://www.espenwagener.blogspot.com

"Drafting" on bike, but yet keeping legal distance (Macca, Faris) = advantageous and allowed

"Drafting" on someones feet in the swim (Normann) = Advantageous and allowed

Clear enough for you?? And that's why I think Normann should get of his high horses and focus on his victory instead. For christ sake, he is, as he so modestly pointed out himself during the awards ceremony, a two-time world champion.

There has been NO illegal drafting established as there would have been penalties. Normann (and Faris although he reaped the same benefit in the pack- Go figure?) are referring to the draft you get even though you ride at legal distance in a pack. Or didn't you get that??

All the respect I formed for Stadler after watching him on Saturday went out the door. What an asshole!

Indeed. Olaf Sabatschus was in Kona to get the pros to gang up to have WTC set the rule back to 10m. As WTC didn't want to to do so earlier this year, he forfeited his Kona slot and decided not to race as a sign of protest.
He had multiple contacts (leading www.triathlon-professionals.org) to get the 10m back and WTC just ignored everything.
90% of the pros decided 10m was a lot better...macca wasn't one of them (as far as I know).

nor was Stadler...the only reason I can imagine he would not want to sign regarding the rule changes is he does not agree with Olaf's stance of drug testing outside of competition...

" nor was Stadler...the only reason I can imagine he would not want to sign regarding the rule changes is he does not agree with Olaf's stance of drug testing outside of competition..."

...which just makes me scratch my head. I've read what is being proposed and heard quite a few discussions about it. How can you not agree with that (which may be a rhetorical question)?

were we thinking the same thing again...?

Yes... this is freaky! ;-)

There was an interview with Peter Reid (Ficker's ex Tri Dubai teammate) and he said that Desiree asks all the right questions about winning Kona. 2nd could just be a stepping stone for her.

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Kestrel Syndicate
Macca Fan Club

This board blindly loves Macca, almost to the point of obsession...Macca can do no wrong. You guys are so lovestruck that you call Normann and Faris a$$holes for speaking out? The 1st and 3rd place finisher - both world champions who have won it going solo - both stated that Macca rode unfairly, and they know a hell of a lot more about the race than any of us do!

So you've lost respect for Normann because he spoke his mind. So you've lost respect for Faris because he spoke his mind. Do you also lose respect for Peter Reid because he spoke his mind? Sorry to disturb your feel-good world, but the reality in elite sport is that not everybody plays fair - and when somebody doesn't play fair at the top level, they should be called on it.

And the poster who said that Normann isn't a pure champion. That's about the stupidest thing I've heard in a while. Did he lot basically lead the race from start to finish?

[reply]
There has been NO illegal drafting established as there would have been penalties. Normann (and Faris although he reaped the same benefit in the pack- Go figure?) are referring to the draft you get even though you ride at legal distance in a pack. Or didn't you get that??[/reply]I think you don't get it. In the press conference Faris said, that he is of the opinion Macca was way too close to the guys in front. If that's correct, he's a cheater (and several guys seem to be convinced of that).

Fennec

Warning broad generalization follows:

Australians and Kiwis tend to be a lot more personable than Euros. Its easy to like them. Maybe its a cultural thing, maybe its a language thing, but one thing I've noticed growing up in Kona is that year after year the guys from the Southern Hemisphere treat the local people better than the Euros tend to.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

If it's perfectly fine for AGers to complain about drafting in (in many races, on this board) then why isn't it ok for pro's to call out drafters? How mad would you be if you were in the top 10, not drafting and saw someone else drafting? Would you just shut up and smile or would you speak up?
Drafters SUCK and if you've ever experienced leading and then getting caught by a peloton YOU KNOW IT!

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Very true. Australians, Kiwis and Canadians - generally loved wherever they go, and I understand the love here for him. It just bugs me that people actually take away from Normann's talent, just because the guy says what's on his mind. And it's not even that bad...it's not like he's Paul Tracy, calling the other drivers a$$holes.

Flanagan is ill-informed.

First, if you watched the coverage: Al Sultan fell out of the chase pack early on, but caught up to them (when they slowed) and then was seen at the front of the pack most of the time (so guess who was latching on to whom?).

Second, ironman athletes registered in Germany have to have a pro-license, are subject to IOC rules which includes out of competition testing.

Additionally, I do not know any group of athletes who are more adament and vocal about keeping the sport clean. Olaf Sabatschus is just the spokesperson for a lot of them.

Unless the athletes in other countries get their lazy asses together, speak up and organize in a similar fashion, they are the ones who have to be thought of as "opposed to a clean sport".

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

Agreed. I think its stupid to say he's not a true champion. Its a race, not a 'who can be nicest' contest.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

Did anyone notice how close Stadler was to the camera crews when he came back into Kona? I was watching on imlive.com and even called my wife over to show her how close he was. Makes me wonder what was going on all the way back and before Hawi. I won't consider Stadler a champion until we hear back from the lab. After Ben Johnson, Floyd Landis, Marco Pantani, Tim Don, Nina Kraft, Spencer Smith, Jan Ullrich, I don't believe anything until the fat lady at the lab sings.

Agreed. The commentators made many repeated references to Faris leading the chase pack. It's tough to be called a drafter when you're pulling the pack.

I have not said anything regarding Faris "sitting-in". I watched also, and he pulled the chase pack pretty much the whole way. My statement was that it is interesting Normann is not a member of Olaf's organization (at least based on an Interview/article I read that I have been trying to find again for the last half hour). You would think Normann would certainly want a 10m draft box; hell, he would probably want a 25m draft box. Why is he not a member? That is all I am getting at. Perhaps there are some other core issues (ie testing) which he does not agree with the general platform of the organization. Speculatory? Yes. But don't claim I am ill-informed.

"This board blindly loves Macca, almost to the point of obsession...Macca can do no wrong."

Did Macca switch to Cervelo when I wasn't looking? :)

Seriously though, I think alot of this is stemming from the image many still have in their heads of Normann from last year's race. Although no one may want to admit it, it seemed a less than masculine thing to do. Face it, what was most men's first reaction to seeing Normann throw his bike and start crying last year? Not saying it is justified, but I think many would be lying if they said they weren't at first a little repulsed by the reaction, and that impression has probably stuck for some.

I wouldn't say repulsed. I was fascinated, because it showed how much of a deep mental and emotional toll the Ironman takes on you.

"(at least based on an Interview/article I read that I have been trying to find again for the last half hour)."

From SlowDef:

"8:35AM: Olaf's website contains a voting utility, where the pro athletes only can vote. You have to hold a pro license to register, and votes are held from time to time. It's by private ballot. But the voting itself is transparent and available for all to see. For example, a vote was held on drafting rules, specifically whether 10 meters in between bikes (back to front) ought to be the rule at longer distance races worldwide. Olaf says 90% of the pros voted in favor of this. There are 130 athletes on the voting list and who've registered. Most of this race's favorites are signed up, and Karen Smyers and Lori Bowden added their names this week. Faris, Cam Brown, Ain Alar Juhanson, Alex Taubert, Andrea Breder, Dede Griesbauer, Drs. Tom Evans and Joanna Zeiger, Chris Lieto, Lori Bowden, Luc Van Lierde, Cam Widoff, are some of the members racing toda. Normann is not a member, as of yet. Gordo Byrn is. Peter Reid was in, prior to his retirement. Simon Lessing is also a member."

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[pink]I don’t use pink font[/pink]

I don't feel that people have complained about Faris complaining about drafting. In fact, they thought it added some credibility to Stadler's complaint. What people have been complaining about is Stadler's stupid actions last year and this year: to recap: he throws his bike (somewhat understandable in the heat of the moment); he complains that he wasn't voted Germany athlete of the year (instead I believe it went to some handicap athlete) I also believe he lost some sponsors because of what he said; and now this year he claims Macca cheated; and he spoke at the awards banquet wanting to be called 2X champion. IMO, this guy simply talks way too much! Of course this is across all sports where class and acting humble are long since gone. I sure do miss the days of Walter Payton where after scoring a touchdown he just handed the football to the ref and went to the sidelines. He knew what he had done and that was satisfaction enough. Stadler needs attention, and that is pathetic.

Faris is more old school and I greatly respect that. As for Macca and Brown, although they were legal in the pack, they were weak because they didn't take any pulls up front. Maybe they didn't have the strength to lead, but that is why the draft should be changed back to 10M.

That's a rather pessimistic view given the fact that he basically did the same thing two years ago and was on his way to doing it last year when he melted down like a 3 year old. I assume you are withholding judgment on Jones and everyone who won an AG title until you see the lab tests. Very sad that this is the state of our sport.