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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [JudgeNick] [ In reply to ]
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Here's something else to chew on though: Many "race" wheels are not lighter than training wheels. For instance, Zipp 808 clinchers are 1921g, which is comparable to the weight of your typical wheelset that will roll a race bike out the door of any bike shop. Shimano WH-R500's are in the neighborhood of 1850g, and Mavic Aksiums are around 1870g if I recall correctly. The exact weight isn't that important, but the point is that there are tons of people racing 808 clinchers, 1080 clinchers (and similar models from other brands), off-brand (re-branded name brand wheels sold by the same asians) carbon ebay wheels, discs, clincher tri-spokes, etc, all of which are in the same ballpark as a "training" wheelset weight. My gut feeling is that certain race wheels' rotational moment of inertia is probably a little higher than a training wheel of (nearly) equivalent weight. Granted, the distribution of rim weight is such that a deeper rim could be approximated as being a line of distributed mass slightly closer to the rotational axis than with the training wheel, but the rim is also heavier, which may offset any advantages in reduced "effective diameter." I'd do the math now if someone gave me all the specifications, but I don't feel like tracking down that many numbers right now. Also, without knowing the exact mass distribution of the rim material it's a moot point. The MOI is going to be small enough that an educated guess really isn't really accurate enough here.

My take on race wheels is this: They don't help nearly as much as people think they do. If you're fast you will go fast regardless, but if you're consistently pushing upwards of 20mph avg then you could certainly make a case for needing to upgrade your wheels, as you're evidently already putting in work in training. When you do buy aero wheels, buy the most aero wheel you can (afford, control in moderate crosswind, race on however often you will be racing (i.e keep durability in mind). The preponderance of tri courses are "flat" in the sense that when you compare the pros and cons of weight and aerodynamics, aerodynamics wins out. 500 feet of climbing over an olympic tri course is probably enough to get a course classified as hilly, but not enough to justify using a lighter, less aero wheel. If you can afford to buy more than one set of wheels so that you can take advantage of any performance benefits that might be had by switching to a lighter climbing wheel when the course mathematically justifies it, then I sincerely congratulate you on your financial success. I hope to be able to do the same. That being said, MOP and BOP athletes getting spendy is great for the sport, and there's no harm in being a gear-head. I'm not opposed to people buying tech/speed, just opposed to the BS justification used to do so. The other day I heard a lady talk about upgrading her stock wheels (22-24mm rim depth) to some slightly lighter 30mm deep rims so she could "train faster." I call shenanigans. Train harder/heavier, race lighter/faster/easier. UGHH. This is turning into a rant, so I'm going to go ahead and complete it: Swimmers--don't practice in any type of racing suit. Roadies/triathletes: Don't train in your race suit. Don't train on your race wheels (unless you race on "training wheels"). Aero helmets in training are also a no-no. Runners-- Tech doping isn't turning your sport into a caricature of itself, and that is good. In the words of Ernie Anastos, "keep on f*ckin' that chicken."

Rant over. Soap box relinquished. Peace out.

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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan can we just get rid of this guy already? All he ever does is spout incorrect facts and then insult people who point out his errors.
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
My take on race wheels is this: They don't help nearly as much as people think they do.

You're right, all those wind tunnel tests and real world test are just hogwash...
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC wrote:
If you can afford to buy more than one set of wheels so that you can take advantage of any performance benefits that might be had by switching to a lighter climbing wheel when the course mathematically justifies it

Instead of soapboxing, why don't you go do the math on even a VERY hilly course so that you can see just how ridiculous that supposition is... In other words, there aren't performance benefits to be had, even on a course that is so hilly that most people wouldn't want to race it.

Your take on race wheels is marginally more rational than some folks on here, but it's still incredibly misguided by myth.

I think that from now on, any time someone writes, "I'd do the math but..." there is going to be a requirement that you do the math. Otherwise, you have to admit that you can't do the math and are therefore just basing your opinion on wild speculation pulled out of your ass.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
My take on race wheels is this: They don't help nearly as much as people think they do

how much do I think they help?

Quote:
. If you're fast you will go fast regardless,

I'll just sum this up with - chris boardman was 5mph faster in the hourd record with a tri bike, aero helmet, and race wheels, than he was on an eddy merckx bike

FIVE FUCKING MILES PER HOUR



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
I'll just sum this up with - chris boardman was 5mph faster in the hourd record with a tri bike, aero helmet, and race wheels, than he was on an eddy merckx bike

FIVE FUCKING MILES PER HOUR


But like dude those race wheel thingies don't help out much dude, they are just like a companies way of trying to totally make people spend more money...
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I think we're in agreement then. The word "any" was meant as a catch-all, in case there is some freak course out there that would make a difference. I should have just flat out stated that I don't think it makes a difference. It might work as a placebo, and there's something to be said for that, but otherwise i'm 100% with you on this one.

Re: drake tri. Re-read what I wrote. I don't douby the wind tunnel tests, hence why I recommended getting one set of wheels, the most aero ones possible.

Rappstar, I will do the math tomorrow. Right now i'm on here instead of studying for my Aero-II quiz, which is #LOSING on my part. I also agree with you on this one. Blind speculation does little to contribute to any discussion.

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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:

Re: drake tri. Re-read what I wrote. I don't douby the wind tunnel tests, hence why I recommended getting one set of wheels, the most aero ones possible.

.

Yes but you said they don't help out nearly as much as people think... considering we can convert drag to time... they help out exactly what people think assuming they are able to do simple math.
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Where to start? 1 you evidently didn't read what I wrote, and 2, your statement about Boardman is exactly what i'm talking about. Yes he went 5mph faster. How much of that speed gain was equipment, be it helmet/wheels/frame and how much was position change? I doubt you or really anyone has an exact answer to that, but my whole statement about wheels not helping as much as people think is a direct response to this notion that you alluded to that his equipment change was the sole reason he got 5mph faster. I never once denied that aero gear will make you appreciably faster, provided you're going fast enough.

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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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People get too wrapped up in it is all I mean. Provided the test was conducted correctly and reported accurately, then you can use the results, but there's more to it than most people recognize. Most companies quote time savings over 40km using a reference speed of 30mph, but this is something the average age grouper, or even elite triathlete will never routinely attain as an average. I would love to have the resources to back this one up mathematically (i.e run a wind tunnel test), but what i'm trying to say is that if the rider is pushing <20mph like most MOP at sprint tri's or <18mph like most BOP's there are bigger fish to fry. You can't just start adding up all the time savings Zipp, Hed, etc throw at you and expect it to work like that. You can't even compare the percentage time savings at 30mph vs 20mph vs 15mph. Aerodynamic drag doesn't work that way. Are these companies being deceptive in their marketing? No, they're just quantifying things in a way that the average consumer can understand without getting overwhelmed, and at the same time making yheir stuff look more impressive, but it absolutely is not simple math. Drag on a wheel at 30mph is VERY low to begin with. It's quantifiable, but low. My assertion is that at MOP/BOP speeds wheel drag is of secondary importance. Specifically, it is second to improving fitness, and aerodynamically equipment should be second to positioning, which is usually less aggressive (read (sweeping generalization here): slow).

There is an up and coming wheel company (can't remember the name, but they post on here) that intends to offer cheap aero wheels that are CFD designed and wind-tunnel tested at real world speeds as opposed to the herculean 30mph that is the standard. This is a huge step in the right direction.

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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [JudgeNick] [ In reply to ]
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JudgeNick wrote:
My intention isn't to ignite the flames,

I see what you did there!
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
You can't even compare the percentage time savings at 30mph vs 20mph vs 15mph. Aerodynamic drag doesn't work that way.

Actually...it does...and you CAN compare results over differing wind speeds. Or, are you saying that all of these smart guys doing wind tunnel tests have gotten it wrong all these years? As long as the flow is in the same Reynold's number regime (which in this case is true), scaling of the drag results for various wind speeds is perfectly valid. Want to know what the drag will be at 20 mph based on a test at 30mph? Simple, just multiply the 30mph result by the ratio of the squares of the velocities, i.e. (20^2)/(30^2) = 0.444


ZackC. wrote:
Are these companies being deceptive in their marketing? No, they're just quantifying things in a way that the average consumer can understand without getting overwhelmed, and at the same time making yheir stuff look more impressive, but it absolutely is not simple math. Drag on a wheel at 30mph is VERY low to begin with. It's quantifiable, but low. My assertion is that at MOP/BOP speeds wheel drag is of secondary importance.

Actually...because races are done over fixed distances and NOT fixed time frames, the slower riders are out on course longer which means that the absolute time savings are GREATER for slower riders. Do the math if you don't believe me.


ZackC. wrote:
There is an up and coming wheel company (can't remember the name, but they post on here) that intends to offer cheap aero wheels that are CFD designed and wind-tunnel tested at real world speeds as opposed to the herculean 30mph that is the standard. This is a huge step in the right direction.

Are you sure about that? I'll bet their test ends up being run at 30mph...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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sorry but the math would tell you that going slower you save even more time, not less.

high speeds - more drag saved, but less time, over a fixed distance.

think hard on it, youll get it

ZackC. wrote:
Most companies quote time savings over 40km using a reference speed of 30mph, but this is something the average age grouper, or even elite triathlete will never routinely attain as an average. I would love to have the resources to back this one up mathematically (i.e run a wind tunnel test), but what i'm trying to say is that if the rider is pushing <20mph like most MOP at sprint tri's or <18mph like most BOP's there are bigger fish to fry. You can't just start adding up all the time savings Zipp, Hed, etc throw at you and expect it to work like that. You can't even compare the percentage time savings at 30mph vs 20mph vs 15mph. Aerodynamic drag doesn't work that way. Are these companies being deceptive in their marketing? No, they're just quantifying things in a way that the average consumer can understand without getting overwhelmed, and at the same time making yheir stuff look more impressive, but it absolutely is not simple math. Drag on a wheel at 30mph is VERY low to begin with. It's quantifiable, but low. My assertion is that at MOP/BOP speeds wheel drag is of secondary importance. Specifically, it is second to improving fitness, and aerodynamically equipment should be second to positioning, which is usually less aggressive (read (sweeping generalization here): slow).

There is an up and coming wheel company (can't remember the name, but they post on here) that intends to offer cheap aero wheels that are CFD designed and wind-tunnel tested at real world speeds as opposed to the herculean 30mph that is the standard. This is a huge step in the right direction.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
I'll just sum this up with - chris boardman was 5mph faster in the hourd record with a tri bike, aero helmet, and race wheels, than he was on an eddy merckx bike

FIVE FUCKING MILES PER HOUR

yeah but he wanted it more too
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [saunaking] [ In reply to ]
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lol

I wonder if chris will pop up and tell us his average power for both efforts

saunaking wrote:
jackmott wrote:
I'll just sum this up with - chris boardman was 5mph faster in the hourd record with a tri bike, aero helmet, and race wheels, than he was on an eddy merckx bike

FIVE FUCKING MILES PER HOUR

yeah but he wanted it more too



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Probably a better discussion for when we next drive to Tom's Farm... The point I was trying to make is that yes, you can make a thinner casing with thinner fibers, but those casings often have higher inter-fiber friction. Now, whether or not that ultimately results in a faster tire is open for discussion.

I had a fascinating discussion with the tire team at Specialized when I was last in Mo'Hill. You would have loved it. The senior engineer is a German guy (Wolf!) who has been doing tire design for 10years.

Even stuff just like cut angle for plies is fascinating (and rarely talked about). Same everything, but different cut angle, would result in quite different performing tires...

I guess you know me all too well ;-)

Did you ask them (again) why they discontinued their fastest tire? Which, BTW, also happened to be made with a casing using high TPI material... ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
My assertion is that at MOP/BOP speeds wheel drag is of secondary importance. Specifically, it is second to improving fitness, and aerodynamically equipment should be second to positioning, which is usually less aggressive (read (sweeping generalization here): slow).

I think Jordan covered most of your stuff but your sweeping generalization is sweepingly wrong. MOP and BOP should work on improving all three because like a lot of us have said before they are NOT mutually exclusive. "Aggressive" is probably the worst fricking perpetuated term in bike fit. The type of position you are trying express is stupidly easy to get into as long as you have someone that knows what they are doing. There are very few position that are truly "aggressive", most of the aggressive positions are just people who know what they are doing and realize its not difficult nor uncomfortable to get into that position.
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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AnthonyS wrote:
asad137 wrote:
AnthonyS wrote:

This is why I'm an engineer and you're a professional shyster.


Remind me never to buy or use anything that you design.

rruff's test gets exactly to the heart of the matter -- if you can't feel the difference when the wheel is attached to no load, do you somehow magically think it'll be more noticeable when it's attached to the dynamic and inertial components of the trainer that will dominate the response of the system?

Asad


Actually his test removes the most important aspect of cycling, load. A bicycle is machine used to propel a human being, without load you are negating this most important fact. His test is moronic, and so are you for thinking it gets to the heart of anything.

And since we are talking about a very small difference in acceleration due to the fact that even super badass bikers really aren't very fast moving objects and most bicycle wheel weights are comparable, one has to be very specific in how to conduct this test.

Go back to your idiotic postulating on balsa wood trucks, free spinning bicycle wheels and all the other make believe crap. You might as well use a unicorn to conduct your fantasy tests too.

I am definitely through with this topic. I don't have time to enlighten idiots. It's entirely too frustrating and futile.

If anyone with a variety of bicycle wheels (some really light and some really heavy), ones with wildly different moments of inertia and similar weight (disc versus heavy rim with light spokes), a bike, a trainer, good strong legs and a stop watch wants to conduct a real world test that will show the differences, then PM me. I'll be happy to help someone with a functioning brain and ears.

As for the Asad and rruff types that already know everything, yet are somehow getting their asses kicked exponentially by Newton's Second Law written for rotational acceleration, you can all bugger off. For a bunch of self adulating smart people, you all are monumentally dumb when it comes to simple things.

Observing your behaviour here and in some older threads on running shoes I can only say you have some serious anger management issues. I would recommend lightening up a bit. Not everybody is out to get you.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
high speeds - more drag saved, but less time, over a fixed distance
Thanks for explaining it to me! My thinking was that because drag is a function of the square of velocity, and time is linearly dependent on velocity, that even though the slower rider spends more time on the course, the decrease in drag was greater relatively speaking than the increase in time spent on the course.
I ran a simulation at AnalyticCycling (I used the "Breakway" calculator because it inherently compares the effects of an aerodynamic improvement between two otherwise comparable cyclists. I changed distance to 40000m, and used the following finish times: 20mph avg --> 4473.9s over 40km, and 30mph --> 2982.6s over 40km.) Turns out the time savings due to switching wheels was equal--I was coming up with something in the vicinity of 26.7s for both, depending on the average power used. If you give the 20mph rider a wattage lower than the value of 350 that is initially specified then the time savings increases slightly also, which is surprising, particularly because I used an initial velocity equal to that of the average speed of the rider to eliminate the effects of the increased weight and rotational inertia on the acceleration. There is a lot that goes on "behind the scenes" of this calculator, so in the pursuit of wisdom I'll try to figure out (and report on) why I'm wrong. There is definitely more to this calculation than is advertised by companies pushing aero goods, but somehow it seems to work out.

I'll continue playing with the numbers and see if anything comes up, but for now I eat my words:
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You can't even compare the percentage time savings at 30mph vs 20mph vs 15mph. Aerodynamic drag doesn't work that way.




Above statement retracted, on grounds of being completely wrong. Touche señor Jackmott.



For reference: http://analyticcycling.com/WheelsBreak_Page.html







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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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zack the reason it is defy-ing intuition is because cycling speeds are slow enough that you aren't yet on the very steep curve of the exponential drag equation. Its still 'close' to linear.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Would it be possible to split the Triathlon Forum into 2 groups?

A) I did the math
B) Wild speculation pulled from my ass

:)

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
[snip]

I guess you know me all too well ;-)

Did you ask them (again) why they discontinued their fastest tire? Which, BTW, also happened to be made with a casing using high TPI material... ;-)[/quote]
We talked about the Mondo. I *always* ask them. They are probably ready to shoot me. I'm sure the answer is a mix of considerations, but the short answer is, for whatever reason, that it didn't sell. I've gone over all the reasons that I/we think it didn't sell, but the bottom line is that it didn't. They know that it is/was a fast tire. A really fast tire. But I had my most in depth ever discussion about this sort of stuff with them, so maybe we can pump Crr back up to the top of the list for at least one tire in the line.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:

We talked about the Mondo. I *always* ask them. They are probably ready to shoot me. I'm sure the answer is a mix of considerations, but the short answer is, for whatever reason, that it didn't sell. I've gone over all the reasons that I/we think it didn't sell, but the bottom line is that it didn't. They know that it is/was a fast tire. A really fast tire. But I had my most in depth ever discussion about this sort of stuff with them, so maybe we can pump Crr back up to the top of the list for at least one tire in the line.

:-) Yep...that tire is a classic case study for "Marketing 101". It would be interesting to know what their thoughts are on why it didn't sell...

IMHO, they should only change the tread mold to remove the "dual radius" ridges (i.e. make it a more rounded profile like the Turbo models) and re-introduce it as the top of the line Turbo model...same casing and tread compounds. And whatever they do, they should keep the word "tubular" out of it's name at ALL costs ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Would it be possible to split the Triathlon Forum into 2 groups?

A) I did the math

http://wattagetraining.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2

msuguy512 wrote:
B) Wild speculation pulled from my ass

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?forum=1;

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Rotating weight - jackmott, Tom A, explain this to me [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, Jordan drops knowledge like it's his job. I think he came down on me a little hard, which surprised me because it seems that he and I are pretty much on the same page. In my first post on this thread I toned down my actual opinion about the wheels thing because I've gotten remarks before about triathlon not needing any more elitist opinions, so I tried to be a little more inclusive/lax about it which immediately got shot down by Mr. Rappstar.

Please clarify:
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...work on improving all three
I'm not sure which "3" you're referring to. Fitness, equipment, and positioning perhaps? If so, can't disagree with that, but I think it should be done in order: Fitness/positioning, then equipment.

"Aggressive" is admittedly a dirty slang word (used above for convenience, and in the relative sense), but I take issue with this:
Quote:
The type of position you are trying express is stupidly easy to get into as long as you have someone that knows what they are doing

Most good bike shops are giving away fits with the bikes they sell which is crucial, but there are still sooo many athletes out there that are riding in a position that isn't optimized for comfort+aerodynamics. Without modifications (huge upward stem angles, large stack heights, etc) some of the newer high-end tri bikes may be forcing athletes into a more aggressive (oops) position, but a lot of the MOP/BOP at local races are there because they are new to the sport, lots of them are racing a road bike with clipons (because it's cheaper to get into the sport this way), and are slower (among other reasons) because their positioning hasn't been tuned for comfort+aerodynamics. Road bikes with clipons aren't keeping these people off the podium (pretty sure I saw one of the top-7 CU Boulder guys pushing this setup at Collegiate nats), but positioning on the bike makes all the difference. You absolutely can not take it for granted that they know what they're doing and can make the easy fixes. Knowledge is one of the biggest differences between MOP/BOP and FOP.

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