Supersquid wrote:

If nothing else, I'm thinking it will be an interesting experiment and at this point I don't feel like I have much to lose.

I get my riders with imbalances into a physiotherapist, they get some corrective exercises or get told to deal with it.

One young lady post crash had a quite a issues, a month of laying off in the gym and focusing on the weak points and has come back and a month later 250 watts more on her peak power.

Or you get told this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey4WSb-BVDQ

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Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

That's good you want Dan to perform at his best by advising him not to waste his time with uncoupled cranks as there is no evidence that they work. Just some people's overactive imagination.

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Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

"Did anyone so no hip flexors used?"

yeah, the other fellow, with the online cartoon. or simulation. and i thought you kind of absorbed that as a new truth. which, maybe it is. i don't know. but i look at that pic of faris and it just doesn't seem logical that the femur gets to where it is based on stretch reflex or whatever. the person forwarding this idea said something like no hip flexors. nada. hard to buy.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

People do lots of things and use lots of things despite a total lack of evidence because they believe they work.

Yes, well not a real area of interest to me. Like learning stuff but if I really wanted to know would do a lot more homework than reading ST.

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Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

Amusing

Which is not to say that the physio or the exercises had anything to do with the gains. We should all be aware of drawing false conclusions from the data and results we see.

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Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

If it were a stretch reflex, in my mind, that would mean that the contraction of the quads, hamstrings, and glutes would store potential energy in the hip flexor like a spring. I don't buy that either. Even if that were the case, the spring would have to be able to hold a certain amount of potential energy in order to drive the leg forward. This requires conditioning. Running alone surely provides this conditioning but, from my experience, so do power cranks.

This has me wondering if there's some sort of correlation to how someone kicks while swimming and running form. To me, good swimmers usually have a good kick which, in addition to ankle flexibility, requires a good range of motion through the hips (tight hip flexors aren't going to cut it if you're going to kick your way forward). If hip drive is reflexive, in my mind, good kickers would tend to have a low recovery while running.

Edit: to reiterate my stance, I think PCs are garbage for cycling.

This thread is about powercranks and running. :) Or it was supposed to be. :)

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes, what you believe the cranks are doing for you. But can't provide any evidence that they do.

Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.
Richard Feynman

A good place to start as you think about it might be some of the blog posts by Steve Magness on the subject.

He's got a well rounded set of qualifications from which his opinions are formed. You'll even get a caution from him in one of the blog posts about how to interpret EMG data, ie. it's not enough to know that a muscle is firing...you also need to know precisely what it is doing.

Nice article by Steve Mangness. For those that won't click the link here is perhaps the most significant section in regards to the discussion of training hip flexors.

"The Recovery Phase

With this mechanism, the recovery cycle of the leg will happen automatically. The lower leg will lift off the ground and fold so that it comes close to your buttocks (how close depends on the speed you are running) then pass under your hips with the knee leading. Once the knee has led through the lower leg will unfold and should touch down right underneath you.

Trying to actively move the leg through the recovery phase is a common mistake and will only result in more wasted energy. The leg won’t cycle through as quickly as it would if you allowed the stretch/reflex mechanism to work. A common mistake is to try to lift the knee at the end of the recovery cycle. The knee will lift enough if you stretch the hip sufficiently.

The knee should be allowed to cycle through and lift, but it should not be forced. The best example of this can be seen in assisted walking experiments with spinal cord injury patients. Since the spinal cord has been damaged, these people do not have use of their lower body. However, if they are put on a treadmill and someone actively pushes their leg back, extending the hip to initiate the stretch/reflex, the injured patient’s leg will cycle through the recovery part of walking without assistance! In addition it has been shown that the recovery phase of running constitutes less than 15% of the total energy used during running, further supporting the idea that most of the work is automatic because of the stretch/reflex. Trying to actively lift the knee or pull the leg through is a waste of time and energy."

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Same as the correct unweighting technique in cycling.

Noel,

I've got to agree with you on that one;)

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

The internet disagrees with this evidence.

I don't think anyone disputes that recovery is a much smaller energy cost than the other phases of running. Perhaps it's no coincidence that hip flexors are smaller and less powerful than most of the muscles (e.g. quads, glutes, hamstrings). used in other phases or running; the ones that require much more energy

Still, the recovery phase does have an energy cost and the hip flexors are needed. So if you take a person with weak hip flexors and put them in a long, hard race, that person's performance can suffer.

Of course nobody needs to blow $700 - $1000 on special cranks to solve such a minor problem.

To me it's a bit like having weak postural muscles. Only a fraction of athletes might suffer from this problem for but those that do, it's a limiter. Postural muscles might not drive you forward like your hamstrings do but if late in the race you start leaning this way or that because those muscles have reached their fatigue limit sooner than the rest of you, your time is probably going to suffer.

But my race results do not.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I guess, for being old man fast.

What are your results evidence of???

Dave ... I have told you personally but I will say it hear ... if you got off PC's (or at least only used them 10-20% of the time) your cycling (your weak segment - especially this spring) would improve, maybe dramatically

As a whole if I have a runner who has hip flexor "issues" we try to work on mobility, glute / hamstring strength and a healthy dose of hill reps (running) ... the contraction and elastic relaxation response of the glutes contributes to a massive piece of the of the leg recovery after extension while running (tight hips, weak posterior chain = less extension = poor recoil / recovery of leg)

Hopefully since our original exchange you ave ridden the PC's less and cycling is improving

DL

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

I don't post here very often but all I ever keep reading about is your race results. So I decided to take a look.

What I see is someone that is a good runner but is a pretty weak biker. I have no idea if the powercranks are helping your run or not but they clearly are not helping your bike. Maybe it is time to ditch them and do some traditional cycling? Even if you happened to lose a bit in the run I think that would be more that made up in your bike. Probably time to refocus your training!

I probably shouldn't give you this advice because you're just going to post more and more about your results but at least we won't be hearing about these powercranks.

Yep I heard you. I am now trying to get out for a long ride on Sundays with out PC's since I agree a little more balance makes sense, logically. But I will still do 100% of my indoor bike on them.

I do like the new 61 bikes though, so I do listen. :)

Will have to give this more thought since what would I have to lose?

FYI, my cycling improved the last 2 races because I put my 200mm cranks back on my bike. I love them

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, my bike sucks and always has.

The day I get older folks beating me is the day I will ask what do I need to change. And I have been in the top 20 the last 3 year in the AG with USAT rankings, 12th last year, so yep, I am a real poor athlete.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Have you ever won your AG at worlds? Maybe you should look at what others are doing instead of sticking your race results in your ears and yelling to avoid hearing anyone.

 
.[/quote]

I don't post here very often but all I ever keep reading about is your race results. So I decided to take a look.

What I see is someone that is a good runner but is a pretty weak biker. I have no idea if the powercranks are helping your run or not but they clearly are not helping your bike. Maybe it is time to ditch them and do some traditional cycling? Even if you happened to lose a bit in the run I think that would be more that made up in your bike. Probably time to refocus your training!

I probably shouldn't give you this advice because you're just going to post more and more about your results but at least we won't be hearing about these powercranks.[/quote]
Yep, my bike sucks and always has.

The day I get older folks beating me is the day I will ask what do I need to change. And I have been in the top 20 the last 3 year in the AG with USAT rankings, 12th last year, so yep, I am a real poor athlete.

.[/quote]
I never said you are a poor athlete. For someone that is clearly interested in results you think you would be doing everything you can to improve on them but clearly you're not.

You may also want to go back and look at your results form Edmonton. I didn't see you winning your age group and if you look at one age group up you were beaten by a couple people older than you.

I guess today is that day!