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Re: The P5X is here! [Sloggy] [ In reply to ]
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now integrated disc brakes like this, I could get on board with

http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/INTERBIKE-2017-Enduro-and-Trail-Bikes,10497/Argon-18-Concept-Bike-with-Integrated-Disc-Brakes-2,110224/iceman2058,94




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Re: The P5X is here! [Wifeofatriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Spotted in the wild!
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Re: The P5X is here! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Not replying to anyone in particular...

Maybe I'm an unabashed banker / lawyer / dentist "slash" middle-pack AG triathlete, who would relish showing off my fiscal standing by being able to ride a $15k bike (plus another $3k+ for the bike bag and a Zipp disc-disc), but I actually get this bike and start to like it more and more I see it (apart from the TRP calipers, where I acknowledge Cervelo could have done a better job of getting TRP / Magura / anyone to develop a decent hydro-lever to avoid that monstrosity bolted to the fork and rear stay). In this pic of Sarah Pampiano in race set-up I think the bike looks amazing:



Why do I get this bike? Well its not trying to be faster than the "old" P5, which is commonly accepted to be one of the fastest out there. In any event I think we already started to plateau wrt aero optimization of bike frames, hence why 4 years on no other manufacturer (Felt, Dimond, Ventum, Trek et al) has provided any reliable data showing anything new faster than an old P5 (or NP2 if you believe some people on here).

My take on what Slowman is saying is that what his bike does do is give you a bike that's as fast as the P5, but better in everything else: adjustability, fit, travel, storage and hydration solutions. Problems that any long distance triathlete who travels regularly for races face day to day in training and racing. Oh, and better braking..? :-/ Is that worth $15k and a new wheel "ecosystem"? Who the hell knows, it depends on each individual's financial position, but I still like it and applaud Cervelo for the risk they are taking.

Yes, most would agree that a rim brake option would be great - even me - but most people are also resistant to change... just look at the ST community.

So would I buy this? Yes. Just in 3 years time when my current P5 and Zipps get a bit tired, disc brakes are the norm and prices will have hopefully come down after those other banker / lawyer / dentist idiots have bought into change.
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Re: The P5X is here! [SAvan] [ In reply to ]
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don't go lumping noble professionals like lawyers and bankers in with dentists!

----
@adamwfurlong
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Re: The P5X is here! [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
second hand Dimond....if not just keep riding my 'new" P3.


Ug, Dimond. I'd take a 2010 P2 over those things.

Yep, I will keep my 2 2009 P2's 10 speed mechanical. Save the money for disneyland trips. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: The P5X is here! [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]
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yes, true. and as much as i dislike this bike, i cannot objectively level that claim (uniquely) against them, as both the p5-6 and SC have also used almost all proprietary parts. but i understand your point.

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@adamwfurlong
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Re: The P5X is here! [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Wow....22# without pedals!

My fat bike with pedals and HED alum rims weighs 20.5#. Fat bike could be slightly less aero though!

My memory could be a bit cloudy, but I believe my SC weighs about 18-19# race ready. If that's the case 3-4# is significant. Some say weight doesn't matter much, but that much has to matter on a course with any sort of undulation.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: The P5X is here! [afurlong] [ In reply to ]
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don't go lumping noble professionals like lawyers and bankers in with dentists!

FTW!
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Re: The P5X is here! [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Again, IMO, the people who buy this are idiots and have way too much disposable income and not enough ways to dispose of it.
There's always hookers and blow.


If we can agree on anything in this thread, it's that hookers and blow are *way* undervalued.
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Re: The P5X is here! [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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We are in the exact same boat and thinking the exact same way. Disneyland next year with a trip back up the cost and I keep riding my tricked out Cervelo P2
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Re: The P5X is here! [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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My P2 in race trim is 16lbs that is a full 6 lbs lighter.
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Re: The P5X is here! [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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Putting 6# into Best Bike Split shows nearly +3 mins over the course of IM WI. That's at about a 5 hour split.

The 3 watt gain they claim over the P5 would equate to about -2 minutes over the P5 in the same duration.

I get that some can now run a less cobbled up IM setup. But for those of us that already run squeaky clean bike setups it seems to show the new bike is not faster.

Also consider that sure the bike weighs 22#, but now folks can add even more weight to the storage solutions. So even more weight.

All that said I do really like do like the bike and it's front end especially. But my bike that's worth 2K is probably faster almost all the time!

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: The P5X is here! [Dave613] [ In reply to ]
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"If anyone related to slowtwitch is posting information why this is a great bike, is because they are being paid or enticed to do so in one way or another."

among all the new intro bikes that have come out lately - by diamondback, cervelo, felt, bmc, cannondale, canyon, QR, cube - two of these companies are non-advertisers and have not advertised for the last several years (or ever).

one is cube. they don't sell in english-speaking areas and we're an english-speaking site. the other is cervelo.

now, i like to think cervelo will repent of this decision. i hope they will. but i thought that last year and the year before, and (i think) the year before that. i don't know where they advertised but i know where they didn't (here).

further, i have no deal with cervelo now. none was promised. i have no "insertion order" (parlance for a contract to advertise) from them. yes, it will really chap my hide to see the ads in other magazines and not this one, as has been the case over the past years.

what i really should be doing right now is meeting with and having mai tais with my advertisers. in kona. instead i was in kona last week, reviewing this bike, riding it, learning about it, because i thought that would be the better editorial decision (and that came after a week in vegas reporting on interibike, and i draw the line at 2 weeks away from The Compound).

so i bought a ticket, sat in coach, flew to kona, and returned on the ticket i (not cervelo) bought to see and test this bike.

this bike has downsides, most notably weight, price, and the need to move to new wheel platforms. all of which i acknowledge in my articles about this bike. it also has upsides: ease of use, adjustment, wrenchwork, and travel in a bike with world class aerodynamics and well thought out capacity to carry your stuff aboard.

if you don't want to buy the bike, don't buy the bike. avid slowtwitch readers also saw coverage of two recent new bikes - the QR PR3 and the canyon speedmax - with price points below $3000. we don't simply write about bikes that you and i can't afford to buy.

this doesn't mean there aren't personal motives on my side. annie hed is family to me, and i wanted to see all about this frame she makes in her minnesota factory. still, i think if you simply read my reporting on this bike, it's a pretty dispassionate list of what this bike is and what it does.

so, call me an ignorant slut, call me deceived, uninformed, or an idiot. but please don't call me bent. maybe instead express why this bike really isn't fast, doesn't stop when you put the brakes on, doesn't carry all the water, food, spares, etc., really isn't easy to adjust, pack and travel with, doesn't fit and handle well. because in my reporting it does hit all these marks. instead of impuging my integrity, express in big boy, grownup terms why my reporting is false.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: The P5X is here! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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My wife spent her first 15 career years in magazines. And always ruthlessly defended editorial against the creep of aditorial. Increasingly the industry allow the scope creep between the two because there is diminishing $$ in print. Rogers media in Canada just slashed and burned their print magazine biz as an example. I would submit Lava cross the line in this regard constantly but I digress. And maybe they need to. I mean, I discontinued my subscription after all and I am 100% their target demographic; mid 40s, good living, no kids, 3 bikes in garage, etc......

I say the above because I get the comment "call me slut.....but don't call me bent". As an editor in chief it's ALL about the integrity of the printed word. In your case on the web of course. Chapeau Dan. I appreciate that post.

Btw: The Forward Podcast of former Editor in Chief of Esquire David Granger talks quite a bit about this. Worth the listen.

@rhyspencer
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Re: The P5X is here! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
...and travel in a bike with world class aerodynamics

You keep going on about this. I, and I think many others, would like to understand how this is easier to travel with than a P3, Shiv, IAx, Dimond or, hell, even a P5? All of the previous bikes mentioned require unbolting of the stem, removal of wheels and seatpost and done. How does a P5x make that easier?

And then lets talk about this case. So $800 for a case that makes this bike easy to travel with. But said case is also the size of a twin bed and will always get you dinged by the airlines for as much as $500 for a round trip flight. Many of the bikes mentioned above can travel within a Hen House and avoid airline fees entirely.

So again, if you could, outline what makes this bike full of proprietary equipment and brakes that many average triathlete consumers are unfamiliar with, more easy to breakdown and actually travel with?

"One Line Robert"
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Re: The P5X is here! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"If anyone related to slowtwitch is posting information why this is a great bike, is because they are being paid or enticed to do so in one way or another."

among all the new intro bikes that have come out lately - by diamondback, cervelo, felt, bmc, cannondale, canyon, QR, cube - two of these companies are non-advertisers and have not advertised for the last several years (or ever).

one is cube. they don't sell in english-speaking areas and we're an english-speaking site. the other is cervelo.

now, i like to think cervelo will repent of this decision. i hope they will. but i thought that last year and the year before, and (i think) the year before that. i don't know where they advertised but i know where they didn't (here).

further, i have no deal with cervelo now. none was promised. i have no "insertion order" (parlance for a contract to advertise) from them. yes, it will really chap my hide to see the ads in other magazines and not this one, as has been the case over the past years.

what i really should be doing right now is meeting with and having mai tais with my advertisers. in kona. instead i was in kona last week, reviewing this bike, riding it, learning about it, because i thought that would be the better editorial decision (and that came after a week in vegas reporting on interibike, and i draw the line at 2 weeks away from The Compound).

so i bought a ticket, sat in coach, flew to kona, and returned on the ticket i (not cervelo) bought to see and test this bike.

this bike has downsides, most notably weight, price, and the need to move to new wheel platforms. all of which i acknowledge in my articles about this bike. it also has upsides: ease of use, adjustment, wrenchwork, and travel in a bike with world class aerodynamics and well thought out capacity to carry your stuff aboard.

if you don't want to buy the bike, don't buy the bike. avid slowtwitch readers also saw coverage of two recent new bikes - the QR PR3 and the canyon speedmax - with price points below $3000. we don't simply write about bikes that you and i can't afford to buy.

this doesn't mean there aren't personal motives on my side. annie hed is family to me, and i wanted to see all about this frame she makes in her minnesota factory. still, i think if you simply read my reporting on this bike, it's a pretty dispassionate list of what this bike is and what it does.

so, call me an ignorant slut, call me deceived, uninformed, or an idiot. but please don't call me bent. maybe instead express why this bike really isn't fast, doesn't stop when you put the brakes on, doesn't carry all the water, food, spares, etc., really isn't easy to adjust, pack and travel with, doesn't fit and handle well. because in my reporting it does hit all these marks. instead of impuging my integrity, express in big boy, grownup terms why my reporting is false.

I think you should have taken a week of rest at home with your wife and hang out with your dogs and horses, and then headed out to Kona this week to do exactly what you said (meet with your advertisers etc). I don't think Cervelo could have paid for a better objective write up on this machine. And big thanks for covering the <$3000 price point bikes.
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Re: The P5X is here! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thoughtful response considering the absolute drivel you are responding to.

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if you don't want to buy the bike, don't buy the bike.

I can't wrap my mind around how this is so difficult for people to comprehend. Everyone is entitled to reach their own conclusions on what they want in a product and what constitutes a good value based on their specific wants and needs.

Personally, there is absolutely no way I will buy this bike, I don't see the value in spending much more than ~$3,000 on a bike. That's me though, yet I don't have my head so far up my own ass that I run around like a lunatic spouting vitriol and conspiracy theories every time someone has the audacity to propose an idea (or product) that doesn't agree with my preconceived notions. I can simply not buy the bike.
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Re: The P5X is here! [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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"You keep going on about this."

i don't think i do. it's simply a data point. this bike is a combo of all the aerodynamics available along with ease-of-use. i don't know why this irritates people. just don't buy the bike!

"How does a P5x make that easier?"

it takes, literally - i timed it - about 10 minutes to pack the bike, soup to nuts, all zipped up. it's very easy to take out the aerobars, collapse down the pursuit bars, no cables, no pursuit bars sticking out, plenty of room for other stuff.

certainly you might say that this is mostly a case of 2-piece pursuit bars. which could be put in any bike. fine. point taken.

"And then lets talk about this case. said case is also the size of a twin bed"

no. the case is the size, or smaller than the size, of similar soft cases. the hen house is smaller. otherwise this case is on the smaller size of typical soft cases, notable in particular because it takes 2 sets of wheels.

if the case bothers you, don't buy the case.

when it comes to travel, tho, it's not that this bike is a whole lot easier to travel with, and set up, than a p3 or a slice, but it is compared to other bikes in its competitive set.

then when it comes to adjustments - pad height for example - you're talking 60 seconds versus 60 minutes compared to a speed concept or p5.

but, again, there are tradeoffs. i appreciate the tradeoffs. the negatives. in which case, if those tradeoffs outweigh the benefits, which will be the case for the great majority of you (chiefly the high price) here's good news for you: you aren't force to buy the bike.

the existence of this bike will not affect the quality of your marriage.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: The P5X is here! [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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Pooks wrote:
I'm with you on the disc hate but I also think that's the way the market is heading. Right? No. But market forces don't have brains and there's money to be made from the direction. There's potentially little incentive for companies to buck the trend.


I guess I'm not sure it's that clear cut. What if Trek and Specialized stay the course? You really only have Cannondale, Cervelo, and Diamondback crossing the rubicon on this right now. Maybe Freds far and wide will adopt the new Cervelo and Jerrys everywhere will pick up the new Cannondale at their LBS...and a critical mass of those Fred and Jerrys pushes everyone else across. I just think it's a little early to tell.

At any rate, this bike would be ambitious enough if it did not have disc brakes. And yeah, still obnoxiously expensive, but not nearly as risky for early adopters of it. And not as impractical all the way around in terms of backwards compatibility.

Maybe on balance the good things about this bike outweigh the bad. There is a lot of good in it that Dan and Mat and others point out. Is it good for the sport? I don't know. I really don't think so. The more the sport revolves around prohibitively expensive equipment, races, etc., the more I think the sport will continue to see growth issues. Sure, this bike is easy to travel with -- for the athletes who can afford an $800 case, $175 bike check fees (each direction), and a mini van or other massive SUV rental (usually $50-$100 more per day, than the compact) to carry that case around at the final destination. This, on top of the $425 70.3 or $900 entry to the race you are traveling to...and everything else. It really is the ultimate dentist bike. A bus boy? Yeah, because there are bus boys in triathlon. Oh wait, there aren't. They've been priced out of the sport already.
Last edited by: PubliusValerius: Oct 6, 16 8:51
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Re: The P5X is here! [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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No one has to buy a $10,000 bike. A $2500 P2 is in reach for most people beginning the sport.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: The P5X is here! [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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"The more the sport revolves around prohibitively expensive equipment, races, etc., the more I think the sport will continue to see growth issues."

you're right about this. which is why we eagerly and ardently write about the $2,500 bikes as well. and why we champion races that aren't owned by ironman. and why we champion races that aren't full ironman distances.

but that doesn't mean i'm anti-ironman. i think you all should have the freedom to race what you want, the distance you want, aboard the bike of your choice. or using no bike at all. and at the price you can afford.

i'm only animated in a particular direction when a race organization, or a bike company or technology, or governing body or race production service, forecloses on the inexpensive, affordable, and shorter-distance alternative. that's when i personally get militant and get thrown out of places.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: The P5X is here! [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks BryanD. I never thought about that.
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Re: The P5X is here! [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I know you did. The price arguments just kind of bother me because no one said you had to buy the top of the line gear. When I started Tri in 2011, my P2 was all I could afford and I've had a lot of fun racing with it. If someone looks at the prices of the high end bikes and doesn't do triathlon because of that, they are misinformed.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: The P5X is here! [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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Jesus, the bike weighs 22lbs? Most decent TT set ups are in the 19 range with disc wheels. That eats up a lot of those saved watts. How much does that Diamondback weigh?!

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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