Hold on hold on. I never said there is only one way to do a bike fit. I said that bukenfitting process, after careful selection, should start with a bike fitter who has expertise, flexibility and an approach catered to you specifically. Or you can continue to read posts until they confirm what you want to hear and do that. Since Dan's approval seems to be your end game, why don't you just ask his advice?? I'm sure he can recommend a good fitter in your area.

If you're determined to follow a DIY approach, then download the bikefastfit app on your phone.
A couple of bucks, and you get something useful, that you can track your changes and see what alteration does to other body parts / measurements.


Ignore KOPS unless they're trying to pull you over ;)
As for basic seat height, a decent start point is adjust the height until you cant pedal with your heels without them lifting off, or having to rock to reach the bottom of the stroke, and have the saddle at the angle its supposed to be at ie not sloping down unless that's the manufacturers rec.

The engine room is the key, anything else is irrelevant if you cant provide enough force to go forwards, so start here first.

Curious if anyone has insight into this Specialized Body Geometry fit/Andy Pruitt measure I saw recently. A friend was getting a BG tri fit for a new QR, and they positioned his saddle fore/aft so that his tibial tuberosity was 5cm in front of spindle, and said "that's as far as you should ever go." I disagree, and it really handicapped the fit I think with a really high body position. Any idea where Pruitt came up with 5cm?? Does it equate to anything? I mean I realize the Shiv is a short/tall bike, but I've seen people not ride it that way. Is that just how Specialized envisions TT positions?

So true, too bad I cannot get an engine replacement :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks. Interesting. So, did a bike fitter say you needed 90mm?

What is you knee angle when you are at 12? Crank length?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'm my own fitter :) However, I A) worked as a fitter for nearly 15 years, and B) had my fit confirmed by Dan a few months ago at one of the road shows. Dan's fit put all my coordinates almost exactly the same as what I had, just positioning my pads slightly higher. Everything else was what I had come up with, to the mm.

Nobody "said" I needed 90mm, just that after adjusting every other element that resulted in a comfortable, powerful position, 90mm is where my knee ended up. As for the angle at 12:00, I don't know, and actually don't care. I have substantial left leg damage from an accident 12 years ago, which left me with minimal range of motion in that leg. Top of the pedal stroke with 165mm cranks is as high as I can possibly lift and bend that leg without pain. Prior to the accident, I rode 172.5mm, but realized after going shorter that even with more range of motion, I was never as comfortable before with the longer cranks as I am now...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Thanks

I am going to play around with adjustments on the trainer and see if I can see a power difference.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The majority of "professional bike fits" that I see are super conservative and make the rider nice and comfy... and also nice and slow. I'm frankly astonished at how much more power many folks need to put out in order to go the same speed as I do.

If the goal is to actually get faster then do some research and find one of the rather small number of fitters that are truly performance oriented and understand you want a fast position.

Agreed. I amended my list to researching the right bike fitter as step 1. A good one will ask you your goals and fit you accordingly

This came from the riders pre-fit assessment which involves measuring and looking at many physical and riders goals involved. The distance for KOPS will vary from athlete to athlete. Also question for poster. A TT fit or tri fit???

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Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

Read this:
http://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html


Read Dan's Slowtwitch fit articles, all of them, until you feel you understand them.


You have now hopefully begun to understand bike fit.
Luckily, fitting for triathlon is by far the easiest fit to do.
There are no real restrictive rules and you are really only fitting for one critical position.

Tri bike fit

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Post a pic or video from the side. Let's see what we're starting with.

This is the step by step guide: http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._their_bikes_16.html?

I think many of the leg and knee conventions are outdated WRT a TT position. As in, they should not drive position.

Let's start there -J

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Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne

Will do :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Still doesn't make sense. How about use effective seat tube angle, or simply go as far as you can and still make power and be comfortable? This guy is looking for performance out of his PR5, and he is not getting out of that bike what he should. Appropriate frame size, for sure, but 2" of spacers and an upturned 6* stem. That all came from the 5cm knee to pedal axle. If had allowed the front to come down, would be a much better fit, and the 5cm knee to pedal axle would be out the window. Isn't that just another version of KOPS (as if we should all conform) that's missing the point? I would think two similar athletes with different builds would have way different knee/axle measures. If I can figure out how to blur out the owner, I'll post pic.

Dave, I know this sounds like a good idea and a fair test, but honestly - it's almost useless.

A good TT position is more about maximizing your aero positioning, ideally maintaining your power output.
But a good TT position can still be good, even if power is a little lower, as the aero benefits may more than make up for it.
You cant discover that on a trainer.

Also - due to changing your position, your power may go down a little *initially*, but after a time you adapt to the new position, and it goes back to where it was.
So an initial test on a trainer for "power" again isn't really going to provide any useful data to make decisions on the efficacy of your modified position.

I'd suggest spending the little bit of coin it costs for a proper, professional TT bike fit, as that will benefit you for every future race you ever do - and even though we know you don't care how you place, and you only compete against yourself - there's clearly a reason why you're considering doing this, whatever it may be.
Do it right. Good luck.

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float , hammer , and jog

Thanks for the inputs.

Since this is a hobby, yep, spending money for something like a bike fit, coach, etc is something I have avoided.

I think the biggest reason I have not gotten a bike fit is I have so many inputs from folks that there is not right fit at the end of the day.
If you have the engine, anything will work. I just do not, and never will have a bike engine. I do have a run engine which has allowed me to do well.

But, IF a bit fit would help, ......... But I still will not have the engine to be a 1% biker, but most would love to have my 20% bike results. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I know you don't read my posts, but....

WTF does the final paragraph mean? Do you enter words in a random sentence generator and then put them in your post??

You lack of logic is shocking. You claim your 'research' says there is no perfect fit for someone, so you conclude that it makes no difference what your fit is and isn't worthwhile to spend money. At the same time you want to waste piles of time tinkering on a bike fit when you have close to zero knowledge of bike fitting. On top of that, you ride upright most of the time since you have injury/limitations that impact comfort, so any fit is basically irrelevant for you. Finally, you rant endlessly about individualizing components like crank length and turn around and buy into rigid/generic concepts like KOPS. How does any of that sound logical to you???

But you have 15 velotrons in your basement, or some number greater than one, and IIRC when you bought your Cervelo you got 2 of them? You've put all of those thousands into the sport, but won't spend a couple of hundred on fit?

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I never said I would not, but as I continue to state, so many folks, fitters, extra have the right, only way to do something, and so many are different, that as an engineer, makes no sense. Just like coaches. If they were so great, everyone having one would be winning all the time.

But yep, what I do and do not spend money on a lot of time makes no sense. You are right. Just the way I was brought up with no money so saving is important.
Just one of my many flaws :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Why not spend as much time researching the right fitter as you do trying to self fit??

"I never said I would not, but as I continue to state, so many folks, fitters, extra have the right, only way to do something, and so many are different, that as an engineer, makes no sense. Just like coaches. If they were so great, everyone having one would be winning all the time.

But yep, what I do and do not spend money on a lot of time makes no sense. You are right. Just the way I was brought up with no money so saving is important.
Just one of my many flaws :( "

I like saving money too. So I have a dumb trainer instead of a smart trainer, and one tri-bike that's over 10 years old. But I did spend money on a road bike fit about 23 years ago, and another one about 15 years ago for the road bike and tri bike. Cost me a few hundred, and I still go back to them as a baseline, slightly modified now for my age, but pretty close. That's a pretty good return on investment. I don't win much because I don't train on the bike much or run much (getting back into it now, slowly), and I'm not a good runner anyway. But I was quickish on the bike when I was younger.

You like saving money, so you have 3 or more velotrons and 2 tri-bikes? How does that make sense, at all? Explain that logic to me, please...


Who's saying they have the "right, only way to do something"? When people provide you with information about a way to do something, that doesn't mean they think it is the only way to do that thing. Not sure why you always talk about that. Must be a snowflake thing....

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Your results are irrelevant. Seriously.

Crowie had a meh position on a meh bike with a road helmet, and still won Kona.
Most people would kill for his results.

Then he got a better position on a great bike with an aero helmet, and set a course record.

You own multiple Velotrons, for some reason.
You own 2 tri bikes.
You race multiple times a month.
You travel to Nationals and Worlds.
But you don't want to spend $ on a hobby?
Is all of that not costing $?

You train 3 hours a day, 7 days a week, year round.
You post for many other hours here.
Time is money.
You spend more of that than anybody I know.

You are being penny wise & pound foolish.

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float , hammer , and jog

Dave,
Start by writing down your current measurements. Then look at the fit articles here and make adjustments. Post videos here, or at least pics, of you riding and use the ST collective to get feedback.

Or ask for trusted fitters in your area and plunk down a few hundred.

Working on trying to borrow a CT from a friend so I can get my Tri bike on a bike stand to take video. Seems it would be better than taking the pictures on my velotron.

I am looking at all angles for attacking this. ST help. Friends helps. Internet stuff. Trying to find a fitter I would trust. Looking at a new bike with top of the line parts, starting with the wheel hubs. Everything is fair game. Thanks for a supportive response. :) So easy for others to judge.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep