You are on the verge of losing your elitest prick image. Can you pull some pubes characteristics out of retirement for this thread at least?

To no one in particular....

I was there. We all saw the upstream portion of the pro race. I figured it was going to take me a while (until they cancelled that section).

On the IM FB page, I saw a post where some ladies were talking about being 2:50/100 swimmers....and how they were going to get in line, first, so that they would have more time to finish. Now, that doesn't make any sense (everyone gets the same amount of time, no matter when you jump in), but that's some of the mentality out there. In a normal situation, at least these folks would be moving in the right direction (during the swim). In yesterday's conditions, anyone not swimming faster than the current was pushing them the other way would be PUMMELED by a continuous (2750 strong) line of swimmers. I don't even know how kayaks could get to the ones in trouble (if you're too weak to swim against the current.....what are you supposed to do?.....just float backwards into the paths of those starting behind you? NO WAY they could get to a kayak). I don't think there were enough kayaks to get all the ones who would have gotten in trouble out there yesterday.

It would have been a tough swim for me (my two previous HIM swims have been 36' (lake) and 29' (Augusta). It was nearly a cluster-F at the first turn buoy, even after they changed the course (until people learned that they had to aim left to go right).

Just my .02

Yep I was at St. George as well! Didn't break 1:30 but finished and yeah it's great to have war stories. But if you remember it was about 5 minutes late starting, which I heard was because someone had spotted "dust cloud" in the distance...but alas the decision was made to mass start and off we went.

But this "back in the day" mentality really has no place in our sport or any other for that matter (not aimed at you)

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Was it height adjusted?

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https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
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I didn't race but would have preferred the upstream portion have been included.

Regarding GC70.3....I think that is a completely different story. There were rips...which is why it was cancelled. Red Flags on the beach. You think they should have allowed a swim with red flags on the beach?

Mehhh, your first post on this thread was supposed to be how you didn't really beat Thomas, not an attack on a guy 20 years older than you who you might not have beaten had they not cut the swim.

I like this solution. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hey ajthomas,

I am sorry that you construed this as an attack on Bruce, whom I could not respect more as a top swimmer and triathlete. Whether I would have beat him or not with a difficult swim, I don't know and I don't care in terms of answering the question of what is just.

With my comments, I only meant to defend those without his or my or your capabilities -- those who want to enjoy the sport and all its beneficence -- the same folks I do not think should be endangered or disenfranchised on account of acts of God, like weather.

Participation numbers in triathlon are dwindling, and we can debate the reasons why and whether we, on slowtwitch, agree or care, but the answer is surely not to make those individuals, who are new to the sport and who trying to succeed in the sport, swim upstream. I mean this both literally and figuratively here!

I did this race alone. On the bus to the swim start I sat with an older man in his late 60s. This was his second triathlon, which he admitted shamefacedly was not actually his second triathlon but his second triathlon attempt. His first was also a 70.3, and he did not make the swim cutoff, having learned to swim at the age of 66. In one sense, I wanted to smash him over his head for being so stupid as to attempt a 70.3 as his first (and second) triathlon, but in another sense I understood that he only wanted to complete a triathlon that triathlon cares about, which is IRONMAN, and IRONMAN 70.3. There are so many reasons for that, but he is not the person we ought to shame. He is the person we ought to glorify. I don't know whether he made it or not, but I do know this: had Bruce Gennari had his way, this old man would have gone home crushed once again.

They shortened the swim because the current was so strong that day that the majority of the amateurs would have not been able to swim upstream.Thus they did this for safety reasons. As a first time participant I was disappointed that I could no do the full 1.2 miles but as a ER doctor I understand fully their reasons for wanting to keep the participants safe. No athletic event is worth losing a life over.
Thanks

No, sorry. I see why you're upset but you're only seeing it from your own perspective and I believe you're coming out with entirely the wrong answer.
This is your speciality so you wan it to count. Others are poor swimmers but great cyclists, runners or both. You're okay with them not even getting on their bike if they don't meet your swim expectations? So your speciality matters but theirs doesn't?

The remark about participation medals is gratuitous. I really don't think most most people care much about getting a medal. They do care about finishing. That does not make them deserving of less consideration than the (much smaller) group at the front.

^^^Likewise

This could also be used to eliminate the gripes between front runners about rolling starts preventing head to head racing, while still having a rolling start for everyone else.

See my proposal above for a "competition race" and a "participation event". I think you guys are being too hard on Bruce (I believe he's earned a few free passes over his career and contributor to age group racing). Bruce's points apply 1000% to a competition race. So let's have one. There is another set of conditions that are needed for the less prepared to do a participation event. So let's have that too. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The competition race should still be hard and fair and should not be toned down for participation oriented right sizing. If you want to be in the competition (even if you are 80-84) and can't beat the upstream, then you just go in the participation event. Thus we can have events for everyone. I see no good reason why the competition event for 1000ish athletes needs to be right sized for the few older racers who won't make cutoffs. I'm all for older guys and girls racing (I am 52 already), but I don't want to see the racing for the young guys diluted on account of older racers. I am certain that when I am 70+, I am going to say, "don't dilute the race for me, I want to do the same bloody event as you 25 year old guys, or I'm not racing at all".....I'll go in the participation event.

No, sorry. I see why you're upset but you're only seeing it from your own perspective and I believe you're coming out with entirely the wrong answer.
This is your speciality so you wan it to count. Others are poor swimmers but great cyclists, runners or both. You're okay with them not even getting on their bike if they don't meet your swim expectations? So your speciality matters but theirs doesn't?

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Where I think you are wrong is in not seeing that this whole thing isn't about about swim/bike/run specialities...it's about completing the prescribed course and the dumbing down of venues every single time there is a concern in the swim. People are frustrated that more and more it's not simply about showing and adapting to the conditions to race. But that's because we live in an cover your ass society. So it's not about being swim specialities as it is simply frustration about not being able to complete said course if *any* adverse condition is seen in the swim.

And I get it. We live in a sue friendly world now, so the move is to cover your ass all the time now.


You couldnt pay me full time wage to be an RD. F that....you mean to tell me if I cut the course I have "old timers" btching about the wussification of the sport at me but then if I do have the swim in those conditions and someone dies I'm going to be sued by the family??? I'll take listening to "back in the day" athletes bitch for $1000, Alex. We have enough swim deaths in "normal" swims now that it's par for course to modify the swim. But with every single modification we become "softer" and as a sport. But that's ok because it's being done to save the sport and itself at the same time in a weird way.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If you expand your reading comprehension a bit instead of just taking personal shots, you'll see I have proposed two groups in the event. If you sign up for the competitive event and have trouble, well that's what you signed up for. If you don't want to take additional risk, go in the participation event. You might want to beat me down, but I worked closely with WTC to separate wetsuit and non wetsuit starters to make the racing safer while still having a competitive event. I don't see why the competitive event needs to be thrown out. As Bruce said, triathlon is inherently supposed to be hard and a challenge in all three events. When a paper bag floating down the river can make the cutoff, it kind of devalues the competitive event. If you want to have an event so the paper bag can make the swim cutoff, get on a bike with a motor and make the bike cutoff and then get on Segway to get the run course done, then go for it. Just keep an option for a competitive category.

Just to provide you guys with some context, Bruce Gennari has finished first age grouper out of the water in Kona multiple times, so his comments are not from any stupid idiot with no racinig experience. He's the Andy Potts/Wolgang Dietrich of age group racing.

I know athletes who choose CHOO, Augusta, and NC 70.3 specifically because the swim is with the current. They are selecting races based on their strengths and weaknesses, obviously, which is very intelligent.

Why a great swimmer would choose one of those races is beyond me. That's just poor race selection. There are other options that would have been better.


Yes, we know.

This right here.

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blog

I'm a former PGA Professional. If you give everyone the choice to either "Play the tips" or "Play the white tees"......and you distinguish between them at the end............you're going to have a lot of 28 handicappers playing WAY more course than their abilities should have them playing. No one wants to feel like they didn't compete on THE course.

I don't what they were supposed to do, Sunday. If they had your categories, my guess is they'd have to have several minutes lag between that wave and the start of the "completer" group......to scoop up all the pretenders (who thought they were contenders....or, just wanted to say they did THE course).

It wasn't used as a personal shot but taking what you have said in this and every swim modification thread. But I did edit my post to showcase its more of an old timers mindset. And yes I think you have a great idea. I do think it's added work on the RD but it's great to please all parties- those that are willing to adapt to race day situation and those that just want to complete.

So I apologize if you took it as an offense, it was more to showcase just how hard RDing is. People always complain about a RD decision. Your added classifications doesn't take out the danger and that is the whole reason swim courses get changed (again- cover your ass life we live and race in). So there is that element that isn't accounted for and the whole reason we are discussing this....athlete/race safety.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Here is the problem. Chattanooga is 70.3 World's this year. If you are a front of pack racer like Bruce, you don't get to decide where that WC race is going to be. You have to go to that race, assuming WTC will put on a fair event. The regular 70.3 events at that venue becomes a big prep event. When we had Tremblant 70.3 + Tremblant 70.3 WC, lots of guys came for the regular event to check out the race (and qualify) for worlds.

On the last part, not everyone knows.

Yea but...then you don't really get to argue or complain. You are doing WC simply because it is a WC race, not because it plays to your strengths or weaknesses. Whether the course is easy or hard or something in between is not in your control, but you wanna do it anyway just because it is a WC race...

Why you would assume WTC cares about putting on a "fair event" is - again - beyond me. You know what "assuming" does, right? It makes an ASS out of U and ME.

I can agree with the sentiment to create an 'elite' amateur wave that does the same course as the pros even in adverse weather conditions, like a lot of non-Ironman events already do - that could also be good for development in the sport.

But, it could also be argued that the WC's already serve that purpose. With that, say the same exact river conditions prevailed in September at the WC's. Would it be fair to adopt Bruce's sentiment that 'the sport is meant to be tough' in a WC atmosphere for all age groups?

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This whole debate is kind of funny to read, so I could not resist adding some more comedy. The positions can generally be summed up in two camps:

1. I was there, and I was a little disappointed, but I understand the decision
2. I was not there, and back when I was a kid, no right thinking RD or athlete would have done that, and the integrity of the sport is at stake and the WC will be a total disaster because of this

I don't see the extrapolation of this race into a WC debacle. The WC swim, bike, and run courses are totally different. Relating this to that is downright silly! Strong swimmers should revel in the WC: it is a rectangle with about 1/2 upstream, so it plays well to their advantages. Similarly, the bike and run both have some meaty hills, so athletes strong in those events should also be excited about the WC.

And back to the regular Choo 70.3, this is a young race, and the course change probably is not an every-year occurrence, but people are debating it as if it is. However, if it becomes a regular thing, I would not be surprised if the RD looks at an alternate course. Though, that might be a challenge, if one of the principle design elements is to have the home base at Ross's Landing to be anchored in the city rather than up at the dam or some other remote location. The whole experience is outstanding, and I will definitely go back.

Yet it's been discussed several times and for quite some time that 70.3 CHOO and 2017 70.3 worlds are not the same course.

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Yes, I think that's fair. World's is a different ball game.

But that doesn't affect the swim, does it? different swim course?

to Gerlach's comment on the rolling hills making near impossible to avoid drafting at WC's, will the new course be better with regard to preventing packs from forming?

link to WC course map/profile? thanks

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