Different courses..... yes

http://www.ironman.com/...ace-info/course.aspx

---

blog

Yes, all three are totally different courses. (The run shares some of the hills, but is different.) They are posted on the Ironman website.

With that, say the same exact river conditions prevailed in September at the WC's. Would it be fair to adopt Bruce's sentiment that 'the sport is meant to be tough' in a WC atmosphere for all age groups?

I would say, for my age group 55-59, probably not. Dev referenced my 1:20 Kona swim mad skills. But he left out that on that day I ran 3:25 and finished 25th. Not a podium performance but I'm glad I got to "compete" even if I would have been considered by Bruce to be obviously unprepared for the swim.

For female 70-74, most certainly not.

But it really depends on the amount of current. And I'm not sure how easy that is to measure.

---

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Maybe they can let Lionel and Seb swim a shortened course at WC's...

---

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I left out the most important part about you smoking Hines Ward. For the rest of your life you can claim that you were more studly than a hall of famer. This is the most important part of this thread

With a 50% upstream no wetsuit swim, rather than the 3.5 min gap Lionel had at St. George, it will be closer to 6 minutes. I think he is crazy to focus his year on this race versus his better chance at Kona. I am not sure Lionel has done the math on an "against current" swim.

I think if we are concerned with course safety, start with closing off the roads to cars on race day.

http://newschannel9.com/news/local/car-hits-cyclist-during-ironman-703


While the athlete was at fault, this course needs to have the roads close in the direction of the bike traffic. I about saw a wreck occur descending out of Chickamauga where one athlete went around a car that had turned onto the course and and on coming car came around the curve.

---

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Did it in 2016 and I agree. Accident waiting to happen (and I know it already did, I mean a really bad one) on that two lane open course contributed by impatient drivers and racers in "race" mode trying to place 53d instead of 54th and taking stupid chances

The decision to swim or not to swim is up to the individual racer. If they don't feel like they can handle the situation then don't start the race. Everyone on race morning saw the conditions. Boats were floating in the water and were barely moving downriver when sitting still. Taking part in this sport is a choice. If you feel that you're putting your life in danger by jumping in the water......then don't. The back of the pack women professionals were not very good swimmers. The men had no issues and only a couple of the weaker professional women had an issue. Also, most if not all of the age groupers were wearing wetsuits, so the probability that someone would have drown was slim to none. Another point is that the swim was very close to the shoreline. If you felt like quitting, you could have bailed easily to the left and stood up. Don't sit there and make this about me. This is about a snap decision that wasn't thought out very well, plain and simple. Again, this sport is supposed to be hard. The bike and run had some good hills associated with it, they were hard but you didn't see any of them being taken out of the race because of it. Some of the downhills were tricky because of turns and also because of a lot of potholes in the road. Did you see them take them out of the bike course? Of course not. Triathlon is a voluntary sport. If you're not prepared to tackle what's in store for you during a swim, bike and run, then don't start the race. Be smart.

And the reason why I chose to race in Chattanooga is pretty simple. It's a 2 hour drive away from my house in Nashville and I don't have to break down my bike to race.

Also, WTC 70.3 World Championships are in Chattanooga. The swim is set up to have even more swimming done against the current. The course set up is on the Ironman website now. So, should I not compete in this race because part of the swim will be aided by a current?

Ya, closing the roads would be a great idea but then you'd see how truly "welcoming" the majority of Chattanoogans are to triathlon and cycling. While Chatt has changed some over the past 25 yrs, at its heart Chatt is still a traditional town of the South (as most prob know, Chickamauga was the site of one of the most famous battles of the Civil War), and the majority of the residents are still Sunday church-goers who think that doing anything outside of church on a Sunday is sinful. You could change date to a Saturday but still, those same people would complain b/c can't get to the grocery store, kids' activities, etc. I base this opinion on visiting there 2/yr throughout my youth and living there 10 yrs when first out of grad school. My Dad's family has lived in the Chatt area since at least 1850, and possibly before then.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

That sounds very reasonable until you put it in context:

Many people below the pro and competitive AGer levels will do one or two events a year. This is something they have focused on and trained towards for months and they don't have a contingency plan. They will have spent a significant amount of money on the entry fee. They will have set up family holidays to coincide with the event. They really, really, really don't want to quit before they even start. Now, given that this may be their first event or maybe they've done a handful before - are they likely to be able to accurately assess the risk of participating? In my opinion the answer is no.
Most will give it a go. Any having doubts will likely see everyone else lining up and tell themselves off for being irrational and having cold feet and they'll join in. Those who bail out (the minority) and those take part and fail (the majority in my opinion) due entirely to an unexpectedly strong current (i.e. they were good enough if conditions were typical) will go away very disappointed and embarrassed. I don't think that's a price worth paying to preserve the "hardness" of IM70.3 and IM distance triathlon. Especially when IM is sold as an achievable challenge for the inexperienced enthusiast - which it typically is - when conditions cooperate.

Do you agree with the above? Isn't this how people will typically look at things and react when faced with something like this? Do you maintain they should be put in that position?
At the very least, if compromises were not going to be made to cater for conditions, it should be spelled out emphatically in race information that conditions may require a considerably higher standard than that needed simply to achieve the cut-off in still water.

I agree with devashish_paul's suggestion that the competitive ranks need to be separated in order to preserve difficulty for those capable of tackling unexpected conditions without thrashing the less experienced and less capable.

I didn't "construe" anything, Kiley. You attacked him. If you want to apologize, then do it. If you don't, that is fine too. But to say I was the one who misconstrued, nah, that is just BS.

As it turns out, I agree with your sentiments in general. But the way that you just cannot allow yourself to comment without going personal is baffling.

Bruce,

But here is the issue. Because you know who's responsible for the athletes' decisions, whether they are prepared or not? The race and RD.

So when you are telling the athletes to be prepared and be smart.....all we are seeing is now that in 2017 and beyond RD's are "being smart" too. This isn't 1987 where athletes are swimming in double overhead breakers because well that's the swim course. We are in 2017 where "responsibility" is taken very liberally but yet when shit hits the fan someone is going to be held responsible.

So the reality is that it's athletes of your similar mindset that have to change, not the other way around. ETA: And I say that because "we" as a society has eroded away individual accountability more and more. So it's easy to say athletes have to be smart and know their limits, and yet you are talking about an event that costs what $350-$800 + travel.....so you start to add in all these variables and you are looking at the situation we are in. That may mean you have less love for the sport, and it may mean that our sport is cheapening itself (all of which I can probaly agree with). But the reality is if there are any type of conditions in the swim, expect a modification. That is now the norm, whether it should be, we can agree shouldn't be, but this is now the norm. It's now up to the athletes to accept/understand that as the race expectation.

What is it at Oceanside where there is an dangerous downhill section that has a "speed trap", and you have guys every year complaining about it "not being a race now"...but then do you realize without that speed trap, said race has to change the course because without that speed trap, that permit isn't being given.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm not boiling it down to specialities. I think you got my point backwards. That was a response to Bruce's complaint that his speciality was the one effected. I was simply pointing out that if that was a legitimate complaint it would IMO somewhat legitimise, complaints of poor swimmers unable to complete a brutal swim course. However, it is also true that for less competitive athletes there are much greater differences in competence between disciplines. A pro who's a poor swimmer will still be a decent swimmer by general standards. Many participants capable of a reasonable time overall, will be terrible in the water and may be completely unable to participate on a course with an upstream swim into a strong current. Fine if this risk is pointed out and the expectation is never set that such eventualities will be mitigated. But once that president is set, the situation is very different.

Regarding the section in bold: which people?
I suspect those in the competitive ranks feel this way and mutually reinforce the idea that this is a widespread opinion. I suspect "people" is actually "some people".
Is that fair to say?

I agree it ain't gonna happen. And honestly I don't think it's really fair to residents to close the road. The issues I'm talking about are really down in the GA parts of the course, I think, but there are parts of TN that have access issues (around the "chicane")

I just think it's a recipe for disaster. Last year I was out of the water early enough that I really didn't see any cars, and didn't know it was open, until about 2 miles from the Andrews turn when a big ol' caddy passed me. After the left turn and before Chickamauga was when the issues arose, and it was still early. It's compounded by drafting and (IMO) poor riding etiquette, as cars can't or won't try to get around people riding in the traffic lane (which is a good thing I guess)

I can't imagine what it was like later on with 2000 riders and Sunday church going traffic. All those open driveways, cross streets, etc.

I thought the same thing about Silverman (RIP), started in an early wave so avoided the huge bike crowds mixing with duallies pulling huge boats on trailers, coming at you at 50 mph in your lane....

If you mean that there are people happy to do a 70.3 on a modified downhill swim instead of doing the prescribed course, then yes my "people" wanting to race the course on the day should be "some people". My point is and what I just said to Bruce. Adaptability is being removed from the sport. Not saying it's right or wrong, I get why it's being done. And like I said, that's the reality we are now in. If there is likely *any* adversity with the swim, it will be modified.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The more I think about it -- they already have two separate races.

That is your choice to race this race but you should know that you are taking a risk. And you have to own that risk like the rest of strong swimmers do.

It's not the fact that you raced, its the fact that you came on here and complained about how the race didn't cater to YOU. Every race is a risk..... some more than others. Choose wisely or suck it up.

I'm signed up for IMFL later this year. I know there's a chance the swim could get cancelled again. I'm willing to take the risk and if it is cancelled, I won't be happy but I'll get over it. This is one of those things you don't have any control over. No sense getting all worked up about it.

---

blog

....wait, I think his timing chip hit the wire before you!!!! Did Hines out stud you at Kona after 4 months with Paula on the chocolate milk program?

He outswam me but appeared to have some difficulty with his swim skin...and I was much faster up the steps! so got him by 1 sec. 1:20:00 vs 1:20:01

---

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

A great swimmer would absolutely WANT to race Chattanooga 70.3 as advertised and as shown on the course map because there would be a challenging up-river portion of the swim. But, that was taken away from the good swimmers on race morning -- which is far too often the case. If you aren't a good swimmer and can't handle the swim course as advertised pre-race, there is an easy solution: Duathlon

Unfortunately, a large enough portion of the triathlete community isn't up to par on the swim compared to bike/run and 98% of the time there is a race change, it is the good swimmers who suffer . . . and often NOT because the swim course is necessarily perilous, but because a significant number of poor swimmers might not get the race they wanted. Instead, the triathlon community has decided the good swimmers end up not getting the race they wanted.

---

____________________
Rock Chalk!