"Were the courses flat or 'sporting'. re: your 40km TT, didn't HR show the same thing, i.e. that you went out way too hard???"

NO! My HR went to 175 and flatlined the entire race--both going out hard and going out easier..which is why I don't trust it! Temperature was really high during the 'easier' start, and PE was quite low--HR was jacked. When I started going harder, HR stayed the same....

The 40KM was a big tailwind out, headwind back. I *thought* I was going easy. Going back and figuring, I'd estimate 290W out and 245W back...

And yeah, you're right about the stuff that impacts perfomance (crying babies, etc). It just seems that power is the best measure, and it's immediate. Sure if your FTP is 300W, but you're struggling at 220W, you can only do what you can do. I think the more likely scenario though is "feeling really good" and blowing the first part by going to hard.

This really hit home on the ONE TT I really paced well w/o a power meter. I showed up late, had ZERO warmup for a 12 mi. TT--my number was being pinned as my 30 second guy went off. My 'warm-up' consisted of going what 'felt' WAY too easy for the first 5 minutes of the race. To this day, it's the fasted TT I've done.
Sure, I could try to "go easy" again, but why guess?? There's no downside to using the PM!

Not to mention the cost involved. I own 5 bikes, thinking about getting a couple more, and I ain't swapping out a BB, crankset or even a wheel before every ride. I don't really feel like spending $10,000 on power meters. the HRM is not tied to a particular bike, I can use it when I run, etc, and I get pretty good results from using that information.

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I agree that people have gone fast before PM's....is not like Indurain was slow or anything....

But I really believe that if one wants to go as fast as they can go, whether they're a BOP'r or an elite, the best tool you can use is a PM.

I don't know about Tris, but Road TT times seem to be coming down--significantly, over the last couple of years, particularly in the non-elite categories. It used to be in our state TT that one or two Cat 4's would break 1hr (40KM), now you'll see 8-10. Unscientific, I know--but I really think that PM's are largely responsible.

<<ANY Olympic, half Ironman or Ironman races around North America getting ANY faster than 10, 15 or 20 years ago. The FOP and MOP is no quicker. >>

While this may or may not be true (I don't care enough to do the research), I think what most people look for when talking about a PM for pacing is consistency in race results. I get ONE IM attempt per year. The last two years I screwed the pooch like a teenage rabbit on viagra, (I'm not sure if that simile works....hmm..). Next year I'll have a PM to be absolutely SURE I'm not going out too hard on the bike.

After an hour + in the water and with thousands of people yelling and cheering, and on tapered legs, RPE gets more than a bit skewed for most.

If I raced every other weekend in Olys, I may not 'waste' $1500 for a PM, but for the one race a year on tapered legs mentality that many here have, I don't think I'll ever go without one again.

I guess if you have it, use it. No there is no downside risk, at worst you just ignore the information. But would I personally spend the kind of money it would take to outfit my stable of bikes with PM's? Not a chance.

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<<But would I personally spend the kind of money it would take to outfit my stable of bikes with PM's? Not a chance. >>

If you could do me a favor and contact all the M2529 racing in IM Wisconsin next year and convince them of the same, I would be forever in your debt! (It may not get me to Kona, but I'll take all the help I can get!)

OK, then set your HRM alarm to 130 bpm ( I don't know you but a wild ass guess would suggest that this is low enough). If you exceed 130 bpm in the first hour, then slow down as your watch starts to beep. Granted this is the equivalent of shuffling on the bike, but by shuffling on the bike early in the race, you might actually run the final 13 miles of the race, vs having to break into a walk :-).

Seriously guys, we are all our own worst enemies. The enemy within is your own brain. Once you have tamed your own mind and have contol over it, your brain becomes your friend. If you need a powermeter to tame your brain, then go for it.

However, there are cheaper solutions.

The downside risk is that you become slave to numbers and actually go to easy. Granted this is rare, but it is possible. Ask Chad (cdw). In general though there is no downside (aside from financial).

Wouldn't you rather spend the $1600 to fly out to the Alps and ride till you drop in the big mountains for a week? This will make the MOP faster than any training gadget :-)

"Don't you guys think all of this analysis is way too much overkill for a bunch of MOP triathletes ?"

Given the endless "what's faster a 404 or an H3" threads, I think that discussion of a PM's usefullness is one of the relevant questions I've seen on here.

Good stuff here on ST. I'm taking notes now:

1. Do more squats.

2. Ignore the benefit of power meters.

3. Aim for a positive split.

Am I missing anything?

Considering that I own 5 bikes, that $1500 would quickly become $7500. That's a hell of a training camp.

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Yes, spending $1500 or more on a 6th bike is probably the best training investment you can make. Your doing that would most assuredly be best for me (if you are in M30-34) ;-).

ot

I don't have a cyclo-cross bike yet. I need one ;)

I have 5 bikes, but they all serve different purposes:

2 road bikes (carbon and an old steel bike for commuting)

1 TT / Tri bike

1 mtn bike

1 fixed gear.

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<<2. Ignore the benefit of power meters.

3. Aim for a positive split. >>

Number 3 will simply be the outcome of #2~ :-)

<<I have 5 bikes, but they all serve different purposes:>>

Sounds like you need ONE PM.....two if your tri bike is 650c. If it's 700c, only one with two computer/sensor units. Powertaps are $1200 aren't they?

Actually, it would only cost you $5200 (you only need BB sensors for the other 4 @ $900 ea, not the whole system),but your point is made. ;-)

Mt TT bike is 700c, so I can swap wheels there. How do I put the same rear wheel on my road, track, and mountain bike?

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One powertap'd wheel and 3 harnesses (at ~$65ea) would be easy and not cost nearly $1500. Nobody said you needed to ride with power on EVERY ride.

To emphasize what others have stated - I've found a pretty big disconnect between power and HR at times. Most of those times I've found that power was the 'correct' metric. And that doesn't even account for the significant lag between PE/HR and power. Its funny how easy it is to start up a hill at 150% of threshold and not feel it or see the results on the HR monitor for 30-60 seconds.

In racing you don't ignore any of the metrics...if anything is really out of whack (whack = approximately what you established during a race simulation) you reign in your effort. I have 'caps' on PE and HR for all my races but there is significant slop from the 'expected value' because of the variability of those two parameters.

ot

Use a powertap. Get one wheel with the PT and get a wheel cover for aero in races. Get an extra PT sensor/computer unit and install on the road and tri bikes. Switch wheels as necessary.

As far as the mountain bike and commuter bike, go without the PT. I'm guessing your interval work isn't done on the bike trail on the way to work and that the mountain bike is a recovery/off season tool.

On the fixie, also isn't necessary.

The idea is to use the PT on the bikes you race and train on the MOST.

You missed "train for 700-900 hours per year" If you take care of that, first then getting the powermeter is just fine tuning :-). By the way, last time I checked, Faris positive split in hawaii, but he was using a powermeter, so we should all go out and buy them :-)

<< You missed "train for 700-900 hours per year" >>

No I didn't, I just assumed everyone trains as much as I do. Why else would I have to clean coffee off my keyboard after reading "What's the aero cost of quick release?" :-)

To get the most benefit from power meters, you need to train with it, correct? I spend roughly equal time on my track and road bikes, and many of my most intense sessions are actually on the mountain bike (which has disc brakes by the way). The rear wheels on these 3 machines are not compatible. my old road bike is 8 speed, my newer one is 9 speed. I race TT's with a pair of trispokes.

I don't think going slightly over threshold for 30-60 seconds in an IM length race makes a whole lot of difference.

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One of the main themes I've gathered so far is that there are two general camps: those that are "in-tune" with themselves physically and have high confidence in their ability to pace off of HR and PE, and those that don't. If you fall into the second category, isn't it just dumb to keep trying to do the same thing over and over hoping that something will magically change, but ending up with same result (bad race performances)?

<< I spend roughly equal time on my track and road bikes, and many of my most intense sessions are actually on the mountain bike (which has disc brakes by the way).>>

Well from the sounds of it, it would take lengthy threads on specificity, bike fitting, and aero wheels to begin to convince you of the cost/benefit of a powermeter. (not trying to say you are wrong,...or right). So I go right back to "Train my competitors to think like you do...."

Why not on the fixie?

Actually, you're right. I do my intervals on the way home from work, that way I'm not all sweaty when I get to the office.

On some of the trails here, there is nothing remotely "recovery" about a mountain bike ride.

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Well from the sounds of it, it would take lengthy threads on specificity, bike fitting, and aero wheels to begin to convince you of the cost/benefit of a powermeter. (not trying to say you are wrong,...or right). So I go right back to "Train my competitors to think like you do...."


why, is riding a bike different if you are on a different machine? I use whatever bike will specifically help me with the days objective. Some days that means a track bike is in order.

I like the wheels I have, and my bikes fit me pretty well. My road and track bikes are almost identical (except for crank length, I don't want long cranks on the fixie)

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