julie moss
chris legh
paul newby fraser
sian welch
wendy ingraham

dude, our sport is built on people dragging themselves across the finish line near death. it's been our brand since day one.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

You know what I would have loved to see one time........... Gomez using cycling tactics...//


I think you guys really just don't understand what is going on out there on the bike. He is using tactics and the correct ones. He has been blessed his entire career that he is as good as swimmer as the Killer B's, it has enabled him to win and podium more races than if they had never shown up on the scene. A lot of guys in the back group could/have outrun him. He would not have had the almost guaranteed leads on those guys with the B's.


And what exactly do you think would happen if he tried to sit on the front group and not pull? You all somehow think he would just be able to rest and thus have a better run in him? I will tell you exactly what would happen. One of the killer B's would take him off the back each time they were in that position and make him sprint around them to catch back on. Every cycle of the pull through he would have to sprint twice at least, more if others got pissed at him and joined in. They would make it harder for him to actually sit on than it would have been to pull. And with all the dicking around they might just get caught and now he has more great runners to beat.


Realistically the B's would still win races if they did not drill the bike, Ali is the best runner ever in ITU, so his working so hard on the bike is just his personality and to help his brother out. This is one of the reasons Johnny has not done so well this year, his brother missing from that break is a huge deficit that he and others just cannot make up. He had a fine race in that recent final, considering how much work he did on the bike to try and make that break work. Of course that is going to affect his run later on, but in the old days he had his brother that worked even harder in that break so his legs were not so fried, and that break actually stuck the majority of the time, so he would have a good lead on the chasers who would routinely out split him on the run, but not catch him.


Those two really were a team that worked, alone it is a much tougher road..

Every cycle of the pull through he would have to sprint twice at least, more if others got pissed at him and joined in. They would make it harder for him to actually sit on than it would have been to pull.




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I'm reminded of the true story from a front pack racer who was in the front group at an big itu race with the B's....B's roll up to him, "you better work or your out"....the guy dead and out of breath "i just want to sit on, i cant work".....B's- "work or your out".....1/2 lap later, off the back he went. He was amazed at just how aggressive they rode and pushed to keep that group working.


eta: TV/broadcasts don't do it justice just how much communication is going on in those groups, how much "stern" commands are being given out, etc.


eta #2- there is also a "pride" factor in those guys in that you don't want to be known as a "wheel sucker". Hell the B's could be the ultimate wheel suckers and would win every race. So even being a studly runner, there's a fine line of working with the group and saving versus just "sitting in" the whole time. You quickly realize who does that and who doesn't do that, and every athlete and coach quickly realizes who can be counted on and who can't be. So if you want to apply "tactics", that's fine, but you will quickly find it marking against you as well. So I'm not saying ride stupid if your the best runner. You have to always ride within your own limits, but to throw your hands up and sit on the whole time, wont win you many favors, nor imo many races.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Ya a lot of people really do not understand cycling tactics, they have this simple (and wrong) view that people should just sit on and relax and save it for the run. That is sometimes possible in the main field where there are a lot of guys and not much coordination, but then that group usually doesn't catch for that very reason. Too many passengers and it will eventually discourage the actual guys drilling the chase group. That is why you usually see the really great runners in that group drilling it, they have the most to gain with a catch, and the passengers are a non issue to them anyway.

But in aggressive breaks you better be working for the greater good or you will be spit out. It is not some training day pace line that just moves along smoothly( except in the Womens races, when are they going to learn). Gomez employs great tactics, and even when he is trashed he just takes a short break and then gets back in. Everyone is allowed to miss pulls now and then if they need a break, but that rest better be so that you can get back to the front and keep that break moving, not to sandbag for the run, people know the difference...

That is why you usually see the really great runners in that group drilling it, they have the most to gain with a catch, and the passengers are a non issue to them anyway.

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and that's why it's always smarter to work with B's and keep breakaway pace high (especially because gomez can ride hard AND run fast off the bike; not everyone can do that) and force chase group to work just that extra pulls to catch them. Sitting on B's wheels and forcing them to work the front would actually cause more yo-yoing in the front group and that's what zaps your legs. The more consistent the group is, and the more 4-5 can work together it flows much much better, than if the front group of 8, looked at the B's and told them "you do all the work".

eta: and yes some front pack athletes simply can't pull, so they aren't "saving" as much as they simply cant pull through without blowing up and then disrupting the flow. But they'll be the ones that start to trickle off the back and suddenly they have to sprint out of every corner twice what the rest are doing.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I understand what you're saying but let's not kid ourselves - when JG is in peak shape and rested only AB & MM beat him on the run, regardless of the race up until that point.

I totally agree on the teamwork aspect - AB has definitely helped in sculpting the race to both his and JB's needs - basically eliminating any chance of being outpaced on the run. But I would say the dicking around has worked for some of the faster runners in the lead group before, although this has been on the back of AB & JB not being 100% - I'm thinking about early 2014.

One interesting observation regarding MM - he definitely needs to get stronger on the bike to utilise the tactic of drilling the front of the chase group. He's had more than a couple of stinkers on the run when doing this in 2017.

Not a fan of domestiques but if JG isn't a round in Tokyo, then the Spanish team should be set up for MM to cover the break. Easier said than done I know but makes sense given the current situation. That said his swim is improving.

I am spaniard and I hope for god´s sake that the spanish fed. will not do that...If MM wants gold, he must go on his own. The spanish fed. made this mistake in 2004 with Ivan Raña. Raña was then one of the top guys and the spanish team took a domestique to help him. The result was a disaster: Raña ended 24th and this other guy,...I think he did nor even finish the race. Actually, I do not like team work in triathlon, no matter you are from the same country or the same training group.That´s the greatness of the sport.
And for those that say that fainting and push over the limits is within the DNA of the sport, I say, bullshit. Hope nobody risks and not funny seeing JB puppeting like he did in Cozumel.

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

i'd argue that it's less and less possible these days. especially in the front pack of men's events, the racing is too intense and the athletes are too complete. there's no 'sitting in' on swim, bike or run these days.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I remember when ITU races were criticised for understanding bike courses making the bike section a procession and turn events into a glorified aquathon. Now you get a course that allows breakaways and it is unfair on all those with less bike speed ;)

Hey I'm all for tougher courses. Makes things much more interesting. I just don't like it when athletes have a hand in the design.

Fair enough.

And yes the finish to Cozumel was a bit embarrassing if you're not from the UK. Totally understand why AB did it but didnt like it from a purity point of view.

By the way did the ITU ever clarify the issue of outside assistance? The word on the street was they were going to, to stop piggy back situations from happening again.

What AB did for Johnny in Cozumel isn't outside assistance, because he was in the race. The rule is pretty clear, that an athlete (as long as he/she hasn't finished and is still in the race) can assist another athlete as long as it doesn't compromise their ability to finish (so I could give another rider a tube, or help them change a flat, or help my brother limp over the line, but I couldn't give up my bike or my wheel the way domestiques do in cycling, since that would compromise my ability to finish...)... athletes can also accept assistance from technical officials or official race support (such as race medical or neutral service (which for ITU is usually a self-service wheel pit, the official will hand you the wheel, but you need to do the rest on your own)...

You are right, the potential violation was:

2.2.1.a.)(viii) Compete without receiving assistance other than from event personnel and officials.

But as most rules, it's writting is not clear cut so open to interpretation.

My contention was that he didn't finish the race under his own power. That's different from recieving a tube etc. The athletics community were literally laughing at it.

But the rules as they were at the time meant that what they did was legal. I just think the rules should be changed.

My contention was that he didn't finish the race under his own power. /

How is that? From what I saw he was let go of before the finish line, using gravity to get himself across. If that were a dq then putting your hand on someones back on the bike and pushing them(maybe while taking a pee or to move them forward in the pace line) would also be a DQ offense. I even have seen guys push people forward on swim exit ramps, guy in front slows down you just give him a little nudge to keep the line moving...

Please tell me you're joking....

It was the few hundred metres he was dragged and the throw before gravity took over that is questionable .

That kind of assistance should be banned. That is not technical assistance, that is carrying someone on his shoulders. Jonny was not able to stand on two feet, so, if that is permitted, ITU has gone mental. In fact, Jonny and Ali were not disqualified. I just wonder what could have happened if that finish would have allowed Jonny to get the WTS... Something serious to argue about..

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Sadly I believe that if athletes with less profile had done this they would have been DQ'd but the Brownlees are the highest profile athletes in ITU and therefore worth a lot to the popularity of the series. They are protected.

Guys, this topic was done to death at the time; suggest you search for the massive thread from a year ago rather than go over the same ground again.

I don't think the ruling would have been any different had it been any other competitor (remember the officials are applying the rules, not acting for the publicity of the ITU)... DQing there would have been like the punishments they issued in one of the grand tours last year where they dinged both Richie Port and another Aussie (from a different team, the name escapes me at the moment) who gave Richie his wheel so that he could minimize time loses and then got a wheel from his team car when it came. What are we teaching youth if we start DQing people for sportsmanship.

The real argument around the JB case is whether race medical should have intervened and determined that it was unsafe for him to continue and to pull him. There should never have been a DQ for this, AB's result should not have been effected by anything other than the time he lost based on the decision he made to stop and help. JB crossed the line under the rules, and so his result should count, that said, I was surprised that he made it that far before being checked by the race medical team...

Listen, do you own this webpage? So, we are free to talk about anything we want to, and if you do not like it or you are tired about this issue, then just do no enter.

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Not only that, but also this:

2.2.1.a.)(viii) Compete without receiving assistance other than from event personnel and officials.

As mentioned before the problem is the wording is not clear, and yes rules are applied differently depending who you are. Perhaps that is the reason wording is not clear.

There are plenty of examples around.

Yes, just imagine if in the Olympic 10,000 meter run an athlete who was leading overcooked it, lost the plot, came to a complete stop beside an official who supported them preventing them from keeling over and then their brother caught up grabbed the dysfunctional brother and bodily hauled them to the finish line and pushed them across ahead of them self. Would that raise a ruckus or be considered inappropriate?

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.