Triathlon Forum

Re: Jonny Brownlee [messien] [ In reply to ]

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Jackets

Sep 19, 17 7:43

Post #27 of 86 (3142 views)

messien wrote:

Head to heads:

Jonny Brownlee 19 : Gomez 17

Alistair Brownlee 24 : Gomez 14 (5 of those coming before Beijing 2008 when Alistair was still a teenager)

A quote from Gomez himself: "I've won pretty much everything I've wanted to, 5 ITU, Xterra, 70.3 WC, I have an Olympic Silver medal that I've very proud of but I'm training for the Gold, which is the biggest achievement an athlete in our sport can have"

AB has two. So no, the 'Spanish federation insider' hasn't been proven largely right.

JB has a somewhat disappointing year but the fact of the matter is 5th for him is around the worst he'll do. That's why he's in with a shout for a Tokyo medal (if not Gold). Mola or Murray and a few others are also in with a shout for Gold, but they could quite easily finish 10th on the day due to the dynamics of the race.

I think one of the more interesting questions to consider is would Alistair go to a Tokyo as a domestique for Jonny. Even if we suppose that he decides to switch totally and go long, he'll probably still be the best swim biker at ITU level and his engine in the front group probably would be the best bet JB has of distancing Mola, Murray, Blu etc.

If the young kid Alex Yee can physically mature a little bit and get his swim bike up to the being able to hang with the 2nd pack then the GB team will have some pretty devastating options considering he's a 13:37 5k runner aged 18.

Thank for clearing that up, I knew there couldn't have been much between Jonny and Gomez in a H2H.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [messien] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 19, 17 10:00

Post #28 of 86 (3093 views)

In Reply To:

Oh, you are missing one big thing about gomez's injury and brownlees injuries.
Javier fell down from his bike and broke his arm. All the Brownlees' injuries have been caused by over training, their way of running on their toes,etc... so, if they were not in the series is because they dont manage well the training,etc So, yes, both are great, specially Ali, but please do not compare Jonny with Javier. Javier was the best triathlete from 2006 till 2008 with no discussion (simon whitfield's words)
and after that he's won plus 4 wts,xterra, 2 x 70.3 world champs, with the brothers around. So, first, compare Jonny with Gomez is a joke. Second, triathlon always was supposed to be an individual sport, and if I were brittish I wouldnt have liked how the brit federation has managed the selection for the olympics, giving the spots to domestics instead of people such us Tim Don , Will Clarke, Adam Bowden,etc.... The brothers did not need any domestique to achieve medals, but instead, top guys like Will Clarke had to move to long distance very early, because with these two guys having so much power was impossible to go unless you were ok doing the dirty job....
Gomez will also be remembered by his personality and his humbliness... instead of some others that (this is known in the insides of the sport) used to yell to other racers in competition. good person+good athlete better than just being good athlete

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Re: Jonny Brownlee [juanillo] [ In reply to ]

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messien

Sep 19, 17 10:11

Post #29 of 86 (3081 views)

juanillo wrote:

Not crashing in training is as important as not getting injured in training. Gomez crashed and he missed the Olympics. He's the only person to blame.

Also it's not Britain's fault that Spain haven't had a coherent team strategy. Spain finished 8th, 18th, and 27th in the Olympics so maybe they should have a think about how they race. That's very poor from Mola, Alarza and Hernandez. If that happened to GB there would have been an huge inquiry. GB targets medal - and gets them. They don't target mediocrity.

And lastly there's no rules against shouting at others on the bike. It works well for the Brownlees in order to motivate everybody in that front group. They got rid of Mola that way in Rio ;)

Last edited by: messien: Sep 19, 17 10:20

Re: Jonny Brownlee [juanillo] [ In reply to ]

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mag900

Sep 19, 17 11:59

Post #30 of 86 (3031 views)

juanillo wrote:

No argument that Ali has been the best ever triathlete in history in one event...two olympic golds, impressive!! But, I think it is stupid to compare Gomez and Ali as the first has won more titles, he´s been more consistent (from 2006 to 2008 nobody was able to even see his feet), raising his level when Ali came into scene, and being able to win 4WTS with both brothers in competition. Ali is just "magic", but both are great in different ways. Gomez has been at the top for 12-13 years...isnt that impressive too?

did you happen to catch some race in beijing in 2008?

Re: Jonny Brownlee [juanillo] [ In reply to ]

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r0bh

Sep 19, 17 12:33

Post #31 of 86 (2999 views)

juanillo wrote:

Javier was the best triathlete from 2006 till 2008 with no discussion

Except when it really mattered in Beijing he wasn't.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [juanillo] [ In reply to ]

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Jackets

Sep 19, 17 13:55

Post #32 of 86 (2954 views)

juanillo wrote:

In Reply To:

I think the comparison between Jonny and Gomez can be made, I accept Gomez has achieved a lot more (he's been around a lot longer than Jonny)

Jonny has won more races between the two headtohead, as Triathletes very similar abilities between all 3 disciplines probably the 2nd and 3rd best Triathletes of all time short distance.

Last edited by: Jackets: Sep 19, 17 15:07

Re: Jonny Brownlee [Jackets] [ In reply to ]

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Velocibuddha

Sep 19, 17 14:06

Post #33 of 86 (2936 views)

My belief is that the difference between Alistair and Jonny- is that Jonny has to race all the time.

AB gets to be the best "one day triathlete of all time." AB can show up to two races a year and "dominate."

JB has got to compete, week in, week out with Gomez, Mola, Murray, etc.

The result is predictable. Sometimes JB is great. Sometimes not so much. This year has NOT been JB's best.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [messien] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 19, 17 14:21

Post #34 of 86 (2923 views)

messien wrote:

juanillo wrote:

To be fair the domestique strategy wasn't needed for AB or JB in London or Rio. Could see the point for Helin Jenkins in London & Non Stanford in Rio.

I have mixed feelings about the Brothers - AB with 2 Olympic Golds is impossible to argue with. He rolled the dice, was 95% when it mattered and got his 2nd Olympic gold. If JG was there it might have been a different story (given the heat & RH) but he wasn't.

However part of me thinks they have underachieved relative to their ability. For JB that is definitely the case. AB could easily have 5 ITU golds by now, and I really thought from 2014 onwards JB was going to dominate in the eventual absense of his brother. He seemed to be healthier and more consistent than AB. But unfortunately there was just a delay and the injuries started to come in at roughly the same age as AB (25/26).

JG in contrast has probably got everything out of his talent, bar an achilles injury in 2008 and a bike crash in 2016. I would love to see him in Tokyo going for Gold but unfortunately that is a stretch too far. I think it'll be someone outside the Holy Trinity who wins there.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [Adman] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 20, 17 0:00

Post #35 of 86 (2841 views)

1. Ali has not won the WTS anymore because he´s been injured. It is a fantasy to think he could have won 3 or 4 more of them just simply saying he is the best. Why has he been injured, and Jonny too? BECAUSE THEY PUSH TOO MUCH, AS IF THERE IS NO TOMORROW. And winning is OK, of course, but look at that: Cozumel 2016, Jonny fainting. That´s not funny...that is a situation. London 2010, Ali fainting... So, is that good? is that sports? winning at any price? So, I think they both have a problem with that. I have not seen other guys fainting like that. That is not a good example for people who admire them...they keep in mind "push to the limit"

2. If taking the gold is all that matters, and if JB will be inTokyo, but not Ali, I can give a brit federation an idea: Get the top brit open water swimmer to push and have jonny on his feet, then get the best swimmer-cyclist to push for 40km and then jonny runs for gold.. kind of the Sky thing.is that OK? So, tell Bishop and the rest of young guys to go home (as Clarke, Mc Namee, Don did, going to 70.3 or ironman)

3. I dont think the spanish fed. has done so bad. This year they have took 1st, 2nd and 5th in the WTS... but as Messien says, all that matters is the olympics.

When I saud yelling, I did not meant yelking "come on", I meant unpolite yelling...
Last point, ask all the guys in ITU to whom they have more respect.. I know tha answer

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Re: Jonny Brownlee [juanillo] [ In reply to ]

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fulla

Sep 20, 17 1:02

Post #36 of 86 (2811 views)

Alistair Brownlee has nearly always beat Gomez when it really counted...

Re: Jonny Brownlee [fulla] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 20, 17 1:17

Post #37 of 86 (2805 views)

I will not argue. "let the people think what they want". I just like sports, fair things and see triathlon, WTS and Olympics. But saying that 12-13 years at the top is something poor is just ignorance. Look at all the guys and women that are legends in the sport and did not get olympic gold or even not medal: robertson, bennett, lessing, laura bennett, vanessa fernandes, sarah lindley, loreta harrop...
If WTS sucks, then just switch off the TV and wait for 4 years.

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Re: Jonny Brownlee [juanillo] [ In reply to ]

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r0bh

Sep 20, 17 1:28

Post #38 of 86 (2800 views)

Surely the whole point of elite sports is to see human beings pushing themselves to the limit. How you can see this as a negative for the Bs baffles me. Cozumel last year was the high drama that you get from sport which is why many of us watch in the first place. I fear for the sport when the Bs leave ITU as unless there is someone else there to pick up the mantle of 100% s/b/r racer it's likely the sport will revert to the "wet runners" of the past which is terribly dull to watch.

AB is on record several times saying he is not interested in being at 95% for a whole season in order to win the WTS, he is only interested in being at 100% for certain races. That's his choice and, with two Olympic gold medals in his sock drawer, I doubt he regrets it.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [r0bh] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 20, 17 2:10

Post #39 of 86 (2787 views)

I agree with you, r0bh, that the brothers have brought excitement and show, good for the sport. But, from my POV, fainting like that is not a good example for triathlon. You can push, you can give 100%, but I am scared of someone seriously sick or about to die because these efforts taken over the limits. I have not seen marathon runners fainting like that, but that swiss women in LA 1984. The sport is rising, I am sure the young guys will make it good and will see front runners such us blummenfelt, etc

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Re: Jonny Brownlee [Jackets] [ In reply to ]

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newManUK

Sep 20, 17 2:41

Post #40 of 86 (2768 views)

Jackets wrote:

messien wrote:

Thank for clearing that up, I knew there couldn't have been much between Jonny and Gomez in a H2H.

Despite the 19/17 in Jonny's favourite I would put my money on Gomez always beating him when it counts. Jonny seems to find ways to lose big races while Ali is the opposite.

I don't know the brothers so I can only guess but Jonny seems to have been lost this year with Ali. He is an amazing athlete but really seems like a follower. That said is the year after the Olympics so it's the best time for an off year.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [r0bh] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 20, 17 2:41

Post #41 of 86 (2781 views)

r0bh wrote:

There's a strong possibility that if AB had trained at 95% he would have 2 more WTS titles (2013 & 2014) and would have still won Rio. Even though he won't regret things, it wasn't the smartest and therefore optimum approach. Malcolm Brown has said as much.

I think the sport will be just fine when they finally depart the scene. I really enjoyed Rotterdam as it was an unpredictable finish. If every race can be like that, with a bit more variety in the courses, then things will be fine. In the UK there will be a big hit, but most folk are only watching to wave the flag.

Finally with regards to someone alluding to the Brownlees lack of popularity - there is a bit of truth in that. Within the UK Elite scene, outside of the Leeds squad, they are grudgingly respected.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [newManUK] [ In reply to ]

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r0bh

Sep 20, 17 3:02

Post #42 of 86 (2762 views)

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's been said a few times that in training Jonny is often outperforming Alistair - I believe this was the case in the lead up to Rio. But pin a race number on Alistair and he is an absolute killer, he hates losing and his will to win is second to none. Again, at Rio just through halfway on the run Jonny says something like "back off a bit", Alistair takes this as a sign of weakness puts the hammer down, drops Jonny and runs away for the gold medal.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]

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Sun Wu Kong

Sep 20, 17 3:54

Post #43 of 86 (2741 views)

Velocibuddha wrote:

Totally agree with that but since a little before Leeds he has been nursing an injury that has greatly affected his run training hence he has dropped off the pace a little on the run. But with that in mind considering how much he hasn't been running, his performances have been impressive.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [Adman] [ In reply to ]

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Dan The Man

Sep 20, 17 3:59

Post #44 of 86 (2733 views)

I love reading armchair pundits criticising the approach of the only double olympic champion in triathlon history.

I'd wager that the B's don't care that much about their popularity amongst the 'uk elite scene'. They probably have enough on their plate worrying about how they go about racing and beating Mola, Murray, Gomez etc.!! As stated above this is elite sport.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [r0bh] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 20, 17 4:59

Post #45 of 86 (2702 views)

r0bh wrote:

I think he said "you alright?". Yeh AB is very much like Daley Thompson. An absolute competitive beast.

In the fortnight leading up to the race in Rio they did a few key track sessions and a brick. JB supposedly destroyed AB. Their Dynamic is fascinating. I think JB has the little brother mentality which does hurt him.

I also think with AB out for a while (maybe indefinitely) it's gonna really hurt his training setup.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [Dan The Man] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 20, 17 5:06

Post #46 of 86 (2695 views)

Dan The Man wrote:

This risky approach is being tried with other UK athletes and it's not reaping the same rewards. In the next 5 years we are gonna have a problem on the mens side and it's gonna be like the 2000s again. Hit or miss. But for AB and a lesser extent JB it worked well.

As for their popularity I'm sure they couldn't care less. By it's partly why JG is always in the discussion for GOAT (wrongly in my opinion).

Re: Jonny Brownlee [Dan The Man] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 20, 17 5:55

Post #47 of 86 (2663 views)

Dan The Man wrote:

I can see many brownlees' supporters. I would like to talk about facts
1.who has won the series this year?
2.Last 5 years?
3. they swept the field in Rio. that's a fact.
But, they are not gods. There is competition: Gomez,34, still 2nd on the WTS, Murray has won several races with Brownlees racing....
I just wanna see a bit of objetivity and not flag issues. Triathlon was great even before Sydney 00... it seems what other guys achieve does not count...
best of all the time? in which terms? may be M.Allen, Macca, Gomez, Alistair... no possible to compare ages and wts and olympics, etc

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Re: Jonny Brownlee [juanillo] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 20, 17 6:08

Post #48 of 86 (2645 views)

juanillo wrote:

Dan The Man wrote:

I wanna say more. I prefer to enjoy watching Gomez competing every year than waiting one year to see Ali performing, or 2 or 4. I think the different approach is who loves more the sport or who loves winning. Both love both things but I would say Gomez loves more the sport than Ali and Ali loves more winning, that's why he gets injured so often and we cannot see his outstanding racing.
yet to say that Ali at 95% would have won the seroes is a bit pretencious...i'll say gomez could have won 3 wts with just one leg...come onnn

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Re: Jonny Brownlee [juanillo] [ In reply to ]

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Dan The Man

Sep 20, 17 6:15

Post #49 of 86 (2638 views)

juanillo wrote:

Dan The Man wrote:

1. Yeah but AB wasn't racing WTS this year, actually no, he raced one WTS and it was a procession for him.

I think olympic distance will suffer a bit without strong personalities, there are too many vanilla types at the moment. Mola and Gomez are staggering athletes but they're too nicey nicey. You need more rivalries and outspoken athletes to generate a bit of interest. People like Macca etc.

You know what I would have loved to see one time........... Gomez using cycling tactics....... he always gets in the swim break with two teammates and yet he pulls his fair share of work, he should sit on the back of the break and let the Brownlees fry their legs then blast them on the run. If the Brownlees want to shout at him then he can give them two fingers and sit on their wheel. Of course that will never happen.

GOAT is subjective (hence why it's fun to debate), for me it's Frodeno as he's the only man to have won the two biggest titles in the sport. Our sport is defined by the Olympics and Kona, there are other big titles no doubt but all the best in the world peak for these two races therefore in my opinion the best of the best has to win at least one of these titles to be considered. Mark Allen is a close second as I believe if the olympics were around in his era he'd have won that alongside his six kona titles.

Re: Jonny Brownlee [Dan The Man] [ In reply to ]

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Sep 20, 17 7:54

Post #50 of 86 (2606 views)

Dan The Man wrote:

juanillo wrote:

Dan The Man wrote:

Ha ha I would love if he had told them where to go as well. If only Murray could swim.....

You're totally right in that no one has used the Brownlees bullishness against them on the bike. The only time I've seen that was London 2014 WTS.

Leeds probably wasn't the best race to be fair as alot of the best guys skipped it. Plus it was custom designed for a procession.

And also what is the exact lure of Kona? Olympic Gold has to be worth way way more.
I can see your logic for JF, even if I rate JG and AB higher and don't rate Kona as high as some.