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Re: IMMT bike crash [Dave613] [ In reply to ]
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Dave613 wrote:
With all the roads there that have the ability to more safely navigate, I'd be shocked if there was not a route change. Both events this summer had very serious issues with that section of course. It is a very dangerous section to ride alone training, let alone in a race with thousands of others. Lets hope they change this before the next 70.3. (just my thoughts)

Wishing your friend a good speedy recovery.

heh, you should consider doing the 5150 next year, the bike is the Duplessis section twice!
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Re: IMMT bike crash [spot] [ In reply to ]
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spot wrote:
Dave613 wrote:
With all the roads there that have the ability to more safely navigate, I'd be shocked if there was not a route change. Both events this summer had very serious issues with that section of course. It is a very dangerous section to ride alone training, let alone in a race with thousands of others. Lets hope they change this before the next 70.3. (just my thoughts)

Wishing your friend a good speedy recovery.


I tend to disagree...I rode that section a couple times before last year's race, and in the race itself, with zero issues; I just don't see why some say it is particularly more dangerous than others. Certainly, there are parts of the IM Moo course that I think are just as "dangerous." And, in 2015, there were no crashes there (that I'm aware of). My opinion...I think that the Chemin Duplessis is a key part of that course; I would hate to see it go.

That part of the course is not dangerous in the sense you can do it fine without every touching the brakes even in a torrential rain storm. Many of us have done it in TRAINING in a Noah's ark style deluge. Same thing with Keene in Lake Placid. The problem is race day when you have riders with different descending skills and speeds. Suddenly you have one guy descending at 80 kph flying down and someone else sitting up at 60 kph (not even braking just sitting up)....and then you have people braking at 50 kph. The closing velocity between all these riders can be substantial. Add in a 50 kph sitting up braking and in a blocking position and what is otherwise a perfectly safe descent suddenly becomes a gong show from a safety angle.

For this reason, I think the wave starts are bad because you have riders starting at different times of dramatically different abilities. At least with the rolling start, you are "generally" with equivalent ability athletes. Yes, there is the odd 90 min swimmer who is a 5 hour riders etc, but its the exception. Mass start has less differentials too, but I think rolling start is the best for spreading out riders.

That strip of road is just fine even on a wet day in training. Rider differentials make it suddenly quite dangerous. And in all of the races in Tremblant (5xIM, 7x70.3) this is the first one when we had heavy rain on the bike. Up to now, we were very fortunate overall with dry conditions on the bike in all of the races held there.

I believe next year the race will be rolling start, so differentials will be less pronounced.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [Dave613] [ In reply to ]
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Dave613 wrote:
With all the roads there that have the ability to more safely navigate, I'd be shocked if there was not a route change. Both events this summer had very serious issues with that section of course. It is a very dangerous section to ride alone training, let alone in a race with thousands of others. Lets hope they change this before the next 70.3. (just my thoughts)

With respect to the people on this thread and the people who were hurt, it was not dangerous, even in the rain. It was not at all technical, and the roads were swept prior to race day. The bump they paved over was exactly the kind of road turbulence you will hit in just about any municipality in the first world, let alone what you'll experience in other countries.

If you can't safely navigate that section in the course (without some blocking from other athletes of course congestion occurring -- which by the way, could happen on any course of any type that has hills) -- then you are endangering yourself and others. As horrible as the incident in Boulder was, it sounds like it was entirely the result of an athlete who simply could not hold a line on the bike on a fairly flat road. This is basic stuff.

People show up to these races underprepared. There were dozens of athletes walking their bikes up the Duplessis climb on the first loop. I can't even imagine what type of undergearing and undertraining leads to that issue on a climb that was only punchy in a few places.

People show up to these races with carbon clinchers they either don't ride in training or don't ride in the rain or both, ever, and aren't familiar with carbon track braking modulation (and how bad it can be) or the crosswind stability (or lack thereof) of deep section wheels. They don't know how to descend or corner properly. They don't know how to stay right on the road. They don't have the proper gearing. They don't know how to ride with power meters (or don't have power meters) to control effort, even though they spend $2k+ on wheels. For such an educated and professionally successful demographic, I don't understand the decision making of a lot of folks competing in these events.

I think we as a sport need to figure out how to help newer or less experienced athletes be more competent riders and smarter in general. Don't show up for an IRONMAN as your first triathlon, for instance -- I talked to many of these people, and that shit is unimaginably stupid. If at all possible train how you race, equipment and topography included if possible. The principal of specificity applies to all of this. Even Lionel Sanders seems to be a hazard to his fellow pros on the bike based on his report from Wiesbaden
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Re: IMMT bike crash [alexanderzlenz] [ In reply to ]
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alexanderzlenz wrote:
As I was descending in aero with hand on rear brake, I came around that corner and the official was in the middle of the road signalling folks to slow down. The medical folks were just showing up and there were bikes and people laid out on the course. Of course it was so fast that I could be wrong.... I was either to going to hit him, barely avoid him or crash and unfortunately when I started to feather my brake harder my bike flipped out from underneath me.

I went to the right, slid about 40 feet and my bike went to the left. It was a solo crash, my head hit first and I got a good case of road rash.

I came to my senses and ran across the street to get out of the way. I was asked if I was okay, I said yes and the crews started stabilizing one guy that I could see. From what I gather, a gentlemen descending ran into a few people on the ascent. There was no fence on the ascent side and at least one person and bike went down the hill, that's what the rider standing next to me said.

My front rim was toast and I thought my race was done. I stood there for a few minutes just gathering my wits, then my buddy who i was racing with rode up and stopped. He is in medicine with an EMT background and he checked me out. At that point I thought the race for me was done. He went on his way and I just waited while everyone else was taken care of. I couldn't help anyone cause I would have been in the way and I didn't want to ask anyone for help while there were people less fortunate with their injuries being assisted.

After the med carts took off, I was asked if I was going to continue. I said no and showed the guy my front wheel. He said, "no problem, hold on a minute." Literally a minute later Cycle Technique was there and put on a new wheel. I started riding again minus a front brake, 6 gears and lots of skin.

Long story short:
I wanted to finish in 11:30, I finished in 14:03.
My bike split was 6:59, couldn't go into Aero or stand in the saddle
My marathon was 5:15, had to run/walk the entire distance

Someone made a comment about lack of skill on the descents and I strongly disagree with that remark. I feel very strongly that I couldn't have avoided the crash at that particular moment. Once the officials moved up the hill and had two people signaling folks to slow down before the blind corner it was manageable. Coming around that corner going a little over 30 mph a moment after the crash with people, gear and bodies all over the place....... in the rain.

Thanks for reading this far, this has been troubling me for a few days and any more information would be greatly appreciated.

Maybe I don't understand this story right and why you think it wasn't directly related to your lack of skill on the descent. It was hard to understand the guy's motions who was standing in the middle of the road, but he was literally straddling the center line (or at least was when I passed). Why were you that far over to the left? Were there riders who had crashed on the right side of the road? I thought they were all over on the ascending side...
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Re: IMMT bike crash [scobig] [ In reply to ]
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scobig wrote:
I am always incredulous at those who sit on the left side of the lane or bomb up behind people and try to pass them on sweeping corners. Their egos are putting themselves and others in danger. But I am still 100% against changing the bike course as you cannot legislate for stupidity.

Egos? It's called being competitive. It's a race.

There should be no problem passing people on sweeping corners on a course like that, which doesn't have tight corners. Those who are going to be lapped on the bike by significantly faster riders need to figure out how to stay to the right side of the lane.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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You are correct. There SHOULD be no problem passing people on a course like that. But there is. Especially in the rain last Saturday.

I agree that people need to learn to stay to the right (not just in this race but all races). But I also believe those frustrated when it does not happen should not cross the centre line. Or for that matter aggressively cut across those less able when they finally move over because that only seems to make them more nervous.

Do not get me wrong either. I tend to be the person doing the passing (not the other way around). I have already written to WTC asking for the wave start at IMMT to be replaced by a self-seeded rolling start in the hope that this may alleviate some of the problem.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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There are pros and cons to a multiple loop course. The pros are that, as Jimmy says, it is much much easier to enforce drafting (and much easier to have full moto coverage for mechanical assistance as well). His point re drafting is draft mobs are legion at Panama City and not Arizona because those courses are single loop and multi-loop, respectively.

You simply aren't going to as effectively alleviate congestion on multi-loop or two-loop courses, because of the overlap with slower and faster riders, which is the most dangerous kind of congestion, as you noted in your post.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
alexanderzlenz wrote:
As I was descending in aero with hand on rear brake, I came around that corner and the official was in the middle of the road signalling folks to slow down. The medical folks were just showing up and there were bikes and people laid out on the course. Of course it was so fast that I could be wrong.... I was either to going to hit him, barely avoid him or crash and unfortunately when I started to feather my brake harder my bike flipped out from underneath me.

I went to the right, slid about 40 feet and my bike went to the left. It was a solo crash, my head hit first and I got a good case of road rash.

I came to my senses and ran across the street to get out of the way. I was asked if I was okay, I said yes and the crews started stabilizing one guy that I could see. From what I gather, a gentlemen descending ran into a few people on the ascent. There was no fence on the ascent side and at least one person and bike went down the hill, that's what the rider standing next to me said.

My front rim was toast and I thought my race was done. I stood there for a few minutes just gathering my wits, then my buddy who i was racing with rode up and stopped. He is in medicine with an EMT background and he checked me out. At that point I thought the race for me was done. He went on his way and I just waited while everyone else was taken care of. I couldn't help anyone cause I would have been in the way and I didn't want to ask anyone for help while there were people less fortunate with their injuries being assisted.

After the med carts took off, I was asked if I was going to continue. I said no and showed the guy my front wheel. He said, "no problem, hold on a minute." Literally a minute later Cycle Technique was there and put on a new wheel. I started riding again minus a front brake, 6 gears and lots of skin.

Long story short:
I wanted to finish in 11:30, I finished in 14:03.
My bike split was 6:59, couldn't go into Aero or stand in the saddle
My marathon was 5:15, had to run/walk the entire distance

Someone made a comment about lack of skill on the descents and I strongly disagree with that remark. I feel very strongly that I couldn't have avoided the crash at that particular moment. Once the officials moved up the hill and had two people signaling folks to slow down before the blind corner it was manageable. Coming around that corner going a little over 30 mph a moment after the crash with people, gear and bodies all over the place....... in the rain.

Thanks for reading this far, this has been troubling me for a few days and any more information would be greatly appreciated.


Maybe I don't understand this story right and why you think it wasn't directly related to your lack of skill on the descent. It was hard to understand the guy's motions who was standing in the middle of the road, but he was literally straddling the center line (or at least was when I passed). Why were you that far over to the left? Were there riders who had crashed on the right side of the road? I thought they were all over on the ascending side...

I live and train in the hills west of Boston, with my clinchers on almost all the time... I'm not a pro by any means but I know how to handle my bike. First crash in almost twenty years. I had no problems understanding the guys motions but it was too late at that point. I knew there was a decent gap between me and the next riders coming down because I had passed them a little earlier and checked my rear before beginning that descent. I moved towards the center of the descent lane to cut the overall curve down. I saw him, saw crash debris in front of me (or at least thought I did) thought I was going to hit him, attempted to move to the right and crashed.

My dump was solo, hopefully didn't interfere with anyone else's race... and my intent was to share a bit of the hazy story as I saw it unfold.

Mainly, my post was trying to find out how the guys in the main crash were faring, not looking for a critique on my ancillary incident that most likely was seen by few and not indicative of my previous experiences or my skills.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [alexanderzlenz] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough -- well, glad to hear you were able to complete the race, even though it was outside of your goal. I guess with enough years of riding, there are times you are going to hit the wrong 1cm of pavement, but that seems to happen more often than it should in these races due to inexperience (not in your case)
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Re: IMMT bike crash [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I was almost taken out by that crash. I was coming down Duplessis and came up on the crash very quickly very soon after it happen. We had no warning like later riders that there was a crash.

A rider in front of me drifted wide left and stopped pedaling as she crested the short hill right in front of me right next to the carnage spread across the uphill side of the road. At this point I wouldn't have been able to stop and I was lucky to swerve around her and avoid the crash only to find an uphill rider on my side of the road. Had to swerve again to avoid him. This all happened in seconds. I went from crusing in control about to make a pass with lots of room to narrowly avoiding a big crash.

Hope everyone is alright.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [Stelvio] [ In reply to ]
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Stelvio wrote:
I was almost taken out by that crash. I was coming down Duplessis and came up on the crash very quickly very soon after it happen. We had no warning like later riders that there was a crash.

A rider in front of me drifted wide left and stopped pedaling as she crested the short hill right in front of me right next to the carnage spread across the uphill side of the road. At this point I wouldn't have been able to stop and I was lucky to swerve around her and avoid the crash only to find an uphill rider on my side of the road. Had to swerve again to avoid him. This all happened in seconds. I went from crusing in control about to make a pass with lots of room to narrowly avoiding a big crash.

Hope everyone is alright.

Glad you are okay...really scary stuff.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [Stelvio] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius - Cheers.

It was scary. The post just now was similar in experience to mine. I remembered another point while reflecting more. The race official had to jump around from place to place and wasn't able to slow everyone down until all support arrived. As I was standing at the top end of the crash I had a better vantage point and was able to make the slow down motions to some riders I saw descending very quickly. Still seeing stars at the point, glad to have that memory.

As I passed by on the second loop I saw a lone Argon on the side of the road where the accident took place.

Any updates on riders and gear since the last?
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Re: IMMT bike crash [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Very glad to have a background in bike racing at that point or I might have gone down. The number one thing is to not panic. Of course a few seconds later, safely past the wreck I was like, wow.

Nothing like bombing down mountain roads you have never seen before in pouring rain in a peloton of 125 guys to get you to learn bike handling. Edit: This refers to my bike racing days. I've ridden that decent many times and was not bombing down.
Last edited by: Stelvio: Aug 24, 16 12:14
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Re: IMMT bike crash [Stelvio] [ In reply to ]
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more often than not, crashes are caused by inexperienced triathlon bike riders, vs the aggressive riders.. imo
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Re: IMMT bike crash [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
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ahhchon wrote:
more often than not, crashes are caused by inexperienced triathlon bike riders, vs the aggressive riders.. imo
You could look at that either way - it's the combo. Some of the aggressive riders are not giving themselves a buffer for someone randomly doing something unskilled / unpredictable / dangerous in front of them.

If you do an IM branded race and you're not riding off the front, that is always something you have to keep in mind, especially in those conditions.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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God, I can't believe I'm agreeing with Publius....ugghh...

I've ridden this section in races 10+ times now, it is perfectly safe, even in the rain. People need to learn how to control themselves, learn how to shave some speed off in certain conditions.
An no offence, but flying downhill with one hand in aero and one on a bullhorn doesn't sound like a good control position.

If you want dangerous, go ride Tuesday night crits in Montreal at 50km/hr... :)
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Re: IMMT bike crash [alexanderzlenz] [ In reply to ]
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While I disagree with your thoughts on the course, sorry to hear about your crash.
I was admiring your bike in transition before the race, love the paint job!
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Re: IMMT bike crash [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
alexanderzlenz wrote:
As I was descending in aero with hand on rear brake, I came around that corner
...
Someone made a comment about lack of skill on the descents and I strongly disagree with that remark. I feel very strongly that I couldn't have avoided the crash at that particular moment.

I don't know. You seem to make the argument for people commenting on lack of skill on descents at the beginning of your comment.

Hope you recover well and hit your goal time in your next race.

***
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Re: IMMT bike crash [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcoffee wrote:
God, I can't believe I'm agreeing with Publius....ugghh...

Haha...well, you should be proud of me: I brought my own pump and chain lube to transition the morning of the race, and I didn't borrow anything from anyone. I even zipped up my own wetsuit.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [Marlin] [ In reply to ]
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Marlin wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
alexanderzlenz wrote:
As I was descending in aero with hand on rear brake, I came around that corner
...
Someone made a comment about lack of skill on the descents and I strongly disagree with that remark. I feel very strongly that I couldn't have avoided the crash at that particular moment.


I don't know. You seem to make the argument for people commenting on lack of skill on descents at the beginning of your comment.

Hope you recover well and hit your goal time in your next race.

Thanks.

I guess I didn't articulate very well. There are a huge range of skills from good to bad to ugly in every race. Amazing athletes on lousy bikes and poorly skilled ones on fantastic bikes. I put myself strongly in the middle of the pack. I know my limits. I guess I was a little taken aback about the quick rush to judgement on skills on the other IMMT crash thread. For all I know, the gent involved in the main crash could have been racing in his 100th tri.

The second loop was interesting with the amount of riders hanging in the left.

Anyway, It's pointless for me to dwell on what happened to me, just need to ensure something like that doesn't happen again.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcoffee wrote:
While I disagree with your thoughts on the course, sorry to hear about your crash.
I was admiring your bike in transition before the race, love the paint job!

Thanks a lot. I wanted something a little different as I was building this bike out.

Hand on the bullhorn, I've been practicing that one for a a few years when the conditions are shitty. I did it coming down Mt. Wachusetts during a cold downpour about a month back. I was feeling good.

Not very often I do that unless I don't know the conditions or the course.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [alexanderzlenz] [ In reply to ]
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On both the long highway descent, and the section in question, I just get as aero as possible with both hands on the bullhorns and a couple fingers around the brake levers, scrub some speed once in a while. I personally think the better control is worth the few seconds in an IM!

I have a 2011 SC9. Shopping for a new bike for next year. A new SC is always a possibility, and if that happens, radioactive yellow is for sure gonna be the base color!
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Re: IMMT bike crash [Saundo] [ In reply to ]
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The crash must have happened minutes before I got there and I remember counting at least 10-12 bikes on the ground. I did see one guy on the ground laying stiff and his face was pretty bloody and not moving. There were many people there helping and medics were on the scene. As I made the turn around at the top and in my way back down i did see them loading a couple guys on stretcher boards. Was pretty scary to see and reminded me to definitely take it easy on some of the decents. I hope everyone involved is ok and recovering well.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcoffee wrote:
On both the long highway descent, and the section in question, I just get as aero as possible with both hands on the bullhorns and a couple fingers around the brake levers, scrub some speed once in a while. I personally think the better control is worth the few seconds in an IM!

I have a 2011 SC9. Shopping for a new bike for next year. A new SC is always a possibility, and if that happens, radioactive yellow is for sure gonna be the base color!

I love this bike - SC9.5 through Project One. Spent a few months working on the fit on the Guru at the shop and then the owner of the shop I frequent opened up a conversation with one of the designers at Trek about the bike, my long legs, shortish torso and that bike ended up being the best fit.

It feels like a part of me when I'm in the saddle, best I've ever ridden.

I do the same as you with two hands on the horns, lose some seconds here and there. I wasn't looking to podium this race (that's for sure), just wanted to do my best and savor the day.
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Re: IMMT bike crash [Pmoney8] [ In reply to ]
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I must have been right around you as your description fits what I saw on my first descent. Made me nauseous for the next 10 minutes or so. As I was climbing up on the second loop, I witnessed a rider pretty much on the yellow line on his descent. Another rider is screaming "left! left! left!" and passed him on/crossing the center line. Meanwhile, the guy standing in the center of the road is telling everyone to slow down.
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