N=2.
This is pretty much what I did and went from a PR of 3h14 (run between triathlons) to 2h49 after focusing on the running for 3 months.

Potential, my a$$. He needs to train for it to do it. Right now, he's a 2:54 marathoner. Run more and run more often. It's that simple.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

I think the biggest mistake we make in endurance sports is trying to achieve all sorts of goals in one racing season. You simply can't race a good 70.3 and go for a marathon PR (esp under 2:50) in one single season. You need a few months apart from these efforts. I would even say a spring half iron and a fall marathon would be appropriate. Give yourself some time. You'll never accomplish this with a fall half and a fall marathon.

All the other posters are correct in giving up the swimming and biking. Racing a marathon is HARD! (I've raced several marathons and completed two IMLP races...racing the marathon was a lot harder than any of my IM efforts).

That said, have you looked at the Hanson running program? I believe you get the most bang for the buck with that program. 16 mile long runs and lots of work at marathon pace training. I ran my second best marathon ever using that program. My best marathon was before I had three kids and fresh out of college (2:39). I did a post kid PR 7 years older for a 2:49 at Boston on the Hanson plan.

If you want to go all in on running, then I suggest the Daniels running formula. A bit higher mileage and intensity, but it's pure run training. Good luck!

Mike

sort of off topic but what would you suggest he do to drop those 10 pounds?
i'm 6'4 190 and would like to lose a few pounds to get faster but feel like i eat pretty healthy and don't drink a ton...

Stop biking and swimming :)

I always loose weight once I stop biking and swimming to concentrate on pure running. Swimming gives you good upper body muscles. Biking gives you pretty good/big quads. Those muscles make you look great, but doesn't help you with running. That's why you see the bodies of pure runners, like the Kenyans, resembling toothpicks. Put the bodies of an elite runner, biker, and swimmer next to one another. You can pretty much tell which one is a runner, biker, and swimmer by their body type. They each have muscles specific to their sport.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

1:20 half marathon and cant break 18:20? Was the half marathon course legit distance, and not all downhill? Many people fool themselves of true potential running halfs that were really 12.8 miles or 700' drop

When I ran my best marathons - sub - 2:50 I was just a runner (7 days a week sometimes double days) - My pb's were 15:30 5KM - 32:30 - 10KM - 1hr 12 half. My training consisted of the following:-

M - 8 miles easy
T - Track - 6 x 1000m (200 jog recovery) with 2 mile warm up and down
W - 12 miles steady
T - Track - 6 x 800m (200 jog recovery) with 2 mile warm up and down
F - 8 miles easy
S - 10 miles
S - Long run 18 - 20

There were members in my group who ran five minutes faster than me over the full distance but I would beat them over the shorter distance. Perhaps the marathon was not my best distance. Good Luck but I think you need to focus on running and stay injury free. I only started picking up injuries in my early forties.

When i was 37 and at the tail end of my tri career, i decided to try and do a fast marathon( relative to me of course) I was always a low mileage tri runner, usually in the 20 to 35 range per week, but almost always hard and fast( for me). I have no idea if my marathon program will work for you, but what i did was run 40 to 45 miles a week, every run at minimum averaging the pace or better of what i wanted to run in the race. I cut swimming completely, and just did one long bike ride a week to get in at least one 3+ hour fat burning block. I only did this for 9 weeks, running kind of a training marathon after 4 weeks(local race) at 90% descending. Other than that one run, longest run was 16 miles.

So when i say average pace, of course you start out slower and work your way to faster than race pace at some point in the run. Shorter runs can be a lot faster. It looks like you would need to average just under 6;30 pace in the program i did. The pace i sought out was 6;05 and every run ended up better than that..You are only 4 minutes away from your goal, so doesn't look like you need anything really huge to happen. I don't believe you need to run a ton of miles, unless you run a lot of them slow. This program could lead to more injuries, but i found since the mileage was really low, and there has to many days off, i never had any issues.

It is not a program that most any coach or expert runner would give you, they all seem to believe mileage is king in training for a marathon. But since I actually did this, and it worked beyond what i even hoped for, i will throw it out there for you to evaluate and see if it might suit your talents..

After the first 4 weeks i did a few rest days, and then did the local marathon. Ran with the lead women the entire way and the eventual winner had a break through race and PR'd, so drug me to a PR also. Goal was to run 2;48 or so, ended up at 2;42( 2;40 was my goal time for the big one!

Got back on the program after a few days off, really felt good because of the extreme negative split of the race, no dead legs. That was probably very important in my program i figure, otherwise i would have been on dead legs for at least a week if i had gone the other way in pacing. Used this time to do an extra easy ride too.

Race day came and it was a hilly race, so really had to use my HR monitor to gauge effort, paces were all over the place. Long story short, ran at race HR for the first 13, then got picked up by a faster group of old guys running 5;40's and jumped in. Ran with them with reckless abandon, until all were dropped, and blew at mile 24. Did 8 minutes on mile 25 and 9 on mile 26, so left nothing in the tank. Was at low 2;30 pace up til then, but managed a 2;36 and 5;59 pace, so very happy with the race and result. Beat up a few other triathletes who are much faster runners than me who also raced that day, guys that run a lot more miles too…

So if you want to try something really different, and save a ton of time, this could be it. I don't believe that I'm some big outlier either, i know of many triathletes that did not run big mileage in their careers, and some were the best runners in the sport. Just isn't for everyone of course, nothing is..

I agree - it would be stupid not to agree - with anyone who says to get to your potential you need to stop the biking and swimming and run more. But the OP did not ask that. His question requires more nuance than what a simple answer can supply.

Yes I am pretty sure the course is legit.

To be fair, I have never run a 5k tapered (and usually not even well rested).
Still I am remarkably slow at 5 k (given my 13.1 and triathlon splits).

It is quite alarming how small changes in pace affect me.
6:15 is comfortable hard (a good tempo pace). I can run 9 miles at this pace in practice.
6:00 will become anaerobic pretty quickly. (Can't run 3 miles at this pace in practice).

It is true. I am kind of a crappy runner. (At least in comparison with my swimming and tri abilities). Honestly an "ok marathon time" is one of the easiest goals on my athletic bucket list. Just hoping to run 2:49 in the next 12 weeks. Then to move back to triathlon for 2015. Shooting for a fast 70.3 in the spring/summer and a good finish in Chicago at Olympic distance worlds.

I want to be clear, I think you could probably get under 2:50 without doing many more, if at all, miles but by increasing hard training like I and a couple others suggested.

I think to run your fastest marathon, you should increase miles and decrease non-run training. But to me it didn't sound like you wanted to run "your fastest marathon."

I was not trying to suggest that harder running could be a full replacement for more miles, just that to get those last few minutes to your goal you could try more variety(particularly early to mid way in your training) to hopefully become a faster overall runner for when you start really dialing in on MP running.

Thanks for all the good advice.
Here I think would be a nice synthesis.


3 weeks hard, 1 week recovery

Hard weeks:
Long run- only twice per month. And shorter 16-20 miles. (Maybe do one split day 12 miles morning, 6 evening on non long run week).
Hard workout 1- Tempo run #1- 10 miles @ 6:40- 6:25 pace. (Hopefully pushing towards 6:25 by week 10).
Hard workout 2- Tempo + Interval workout- 3- 5 miles @ 6:15, plus 5 x 800s @ 2:55-2:48 (or 1000s, 1200s)
Hard workout 3- 10 miles with hills or fartleks
Easy run 1- 4-8 miles
Easy run 2 4-8 miles
Easy run 3- 10 miles
2 x 40 min bike
2 x 20 minute swim
Summary 48-65 miles, 13-26 miles at (or faster than 6:30), only 2 hrs swim bike.

Recovery weeks- 4 x 4 miles easy, 3 hrs swim/bike.

Currently weigh 167. Hope to loose 5 lbs of fat. (Go from 8% bf to 6.5%). Will have to stop eating crap- damn!!!
Will hopefully loose 2 lbs muscle.
Goal weight 160.

Foreseeable problems-
1) Over reaching- from too many hard runs.
Solutions- remember to do lots of moderate quality running, no need to kill it on Tuesday, if I will be running hard again on Thursday.
2) Can't loose weight- let's face it. It is easier for me to go from 200-170, then from 167-160.
Solution- none. But even 3 lbs would help.

Good to see I helped bring on a tide of good advice to the thread :D

Your plan looks good to me. Good luck losing the lbs... I'm in a pretty similar state as you, former college swimmer, 6'1", 165, dropped from ~178 this summer, trying to drop to 155 for running (I don't have swimmer shoulders). Careful building to 60+miles, injury wise. That is definitely the hardest part for me!

emaciation is not always the solution for speed


http://www.nytimes.com/...ion/27Best.html?_r=0

155 isn't emaciated for me. I was 137 at this height in HS :D

So did you go on the cabbage and water diet and 100 mile per week program or did you just fast forward to the tapeworm diet with the East Africa approved daily double 1 hour run at 20 kph, Mon to Satuday, followed by the Sunday 2 hour run at 19 kph? Just wondering if this thread put us at that final approved program....don't laugh, one year at the Seoul Marathon hotel where I was staying on biz a bunch of Kenyans pointed to the size of my plate and "muscle" and said the only reason why my PB was only 2:48 was because my plate was too big, I was not running enough and I needed to go down from 138 lbs to 118!!!

I think I scared everyone off this thread with talk about the Macca approved cabbage and water diet....but being a fast marathon is tougher than being a supermodel. At least supermodels get to be beautiful and get paid a boat load of $$$...fast marathoners are waif thin toothpicks who disappear if they turn sideways and at best may have some bragging rights on letsrun.com :-).

This is very close to how I trained for last marathon. I started with almost same goal as you of going sub 2:50 from previous PR of 2:53 and far exceeded the goal. I was also same height and weight on race day as you. I would say in regards to your foreseeable problem of too many hard runs that if you are feeling burnt out from the long runs then take a day off, just don't make it a habit. Your planned recovery weeks I would do a little bit more than 16 miles for the week though, maybe 25-35 (which is still a lot less than your other weeks). Losing weight would be a bonus but don't let yourself get injured due to lack of nutrients for proper recovery and healing. Which race do you plan on attempting the PR?

you remind me of me in my youth, I had really solid times for 10m - 15m races but could never quite seal the deal in the marathon, nor was my 5k much faster than my 5m pace. I'm 6-1 and weighed 165-ish when I was running a lot.

Looking back at my logs, I was good about getting on the track and racing quite a lot, maybe too much and I suffered through my share of 20 milers, but perhaps they were too slow.

I think your half time is an indication of your fitness and perhaps your disappointment at the marathon is related to your need for some calories to get your bigger body down the road for the extra time, assuming all the training is in the right place. I suspect some tempo at race pace or faster might be the key too.

I never took in carbohydrates during a marathon because the products were not available at the time and generally flamed out at 20 miles. I wonder if you would do better by taking some gu or something on board during your longer runs if it doesn't bother your stomach?

Good luck, when I was younger the 2.50 was the standard for men to qualify for boston and I really struggled with it, but then things fell into place and I was able to hold 2.37 pace until the wheels (always) fell off at 20, leaving me to bring it home on the starter motor in 2.43. Never again...

Quoted for truth.

I dislike failure.
But here goes.

The attempt was a failure .
I managed to hold 6:27 pace for 20 miles. Then approx:
Mile 21- 6:45
22- 7:15
23- 7:30
24- 7:45
25- 8:15
26 - 8:30
(7 minutes off goal)

To be fair I "chose" this outcome. I might have run 2:52. A "small PR."
But "who needs a small PR - better to go for it or die trying" I thought.

What advice I followed:
1) Increased my mileage: 45 to 75 mpw
2) Greatly reduced bike and swim
3) Did not do long- long runs

What advice I did not follow:
1) Loose weight- 75 mpw of running is less calories burnt than my triathlon training.
I did not diet. My swim/bike muscles turned to fat and my weight stayed constant.
2) Eliminate long runs - or split them up. My long runs were 15-19. Less than I had done in the past, but still longish.

Failure:
I was only 6 miles off of goal pace or 7 sec/mile (if I had paced correctly).

I believe the following to be THE most significant weakness:
1)I needed EITHER a long long runs- 22+ miles
OR a very long marathon pace tempo run 12-16 miles
And I needed this CONSISTENTLY.


I was comfortable running 6:10 for 8-10 mile tempos. I was comfortable running 13 at 6:27 in training (but only did this only once). I was even comfortable racing 6:27 for 20 miles. (I think I could of held 6:22 for 20 miles).

I was NOT comfortable running 26 at 6:27.

Jack Daniels recommends lots of marathon pace 12-16 mile runs.
That might have worked.
I think a couple of 22+ runs might have helped instead.

Obviously- been faster, fitter, thinner, less foolish, or had another month in the training cycle - would have helped.

Funny moment- this race had a simultaneous 13.1 and 26.2 start and a common finish line.
You know things are going terribly wrong - when half marathon runners are outrunning you near the finish!!

If you ask me the fitness for sub 2h50 is there, your main mistake was your weight. It is critical for fast marathons and training for them: you won't be able to get quality training if you are too heavy.

Way to go big!!

You'll get it next time.

Well-yeah too big.

But I was running with two other guys.
Both more muscular, both fatter.
(No doubt both faster for 5k also)
They were with me at mile 20.
8 minutes ahead by mile 26.

6'1- 167 - too big for a 2:20 marathon- definitely.
For a 2:48- not so much.

Of course 10 lbs = 5 seconds/mile.
But 167 to 157 is a lot of work- that is 10 x more difficult than going from 200 to 170.