If you're a long way out from the marathon maybe some VO2 work would help. That could help make 6:25-6:30 pace more comfortable and a lower percentage of max. Depending on how important the goal is to you, I might even recommend dropping all swim/bike training and adding double run days. Might even be able to squeeze in one more hard run workout per week this way.

I'm in a similar situation. Just ran 3:28 in Kona, which is not a bad pace considering my best standalone 5k is 17:4X, but I need more speed that mileage alone might not give me (or at least not very quickly). Plan of attack is to do lots of VO2 work and mechanics work, so repetitions as short as 200 meters and no more than 1600. Of course, just as important (if not more), I want to ramp up weekly running mileage using easy slow runs most days of the week. Hoping to get consistently around 60-70 miles/week, which if you think about it, is still way less training time than a big week in triathlon (only about 8-9 hours).

Good luck, hope we both gain a little foot speed this winter!

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Tim Russell, Pro Triathlete

Instagram- @timbikerun

We would probably need more specifics (like, I hope all weeks aren't that similar especially early in you training).

here are some thoughts:
your long run seems too long, your longest run should most likely be around 20 miles, and most long runs should be 16-18
you aren't doing enough fast work and/or variety
you could add some things like hills

in general, I'd say its about adding one more short day, cutting your long run down a little and most of all variety, variety, variety including faster speeds up until the last month when you want to get specific training in

There's no need for 20-24 mile long runs. That's a recipe for disaster.

Very long runs (16+) also shouldn't be done every weekend. Every other weekend is better. Alternate between a 16-20 miler with a 10-14 miler.
When training for a marathon, marathon pace running is important. Run 8-12 miles at MP during the week. You're tempo efforts are good, but don't neglect the MP runs.

Long Run, MP Run, and Tempo Run (intervals) are the keys to marathon training. On the weeks that you don't do your 16-20 long run, you can do a track workout (like Yasso 800s) on your tempo day.

My fastest marathon was 6 minutes slower then what you reported (2:54). My gut feeling is that if you want to break 2:50, you need to not swim or bike for 16 weeks before your target marathon. Don't get caught up in long training runs (15 miles should be enough). Don't go for high weekly mileage (mid 40's should be enough). The most important thing is that 3 or 4 times a week you should run your guts out for 8 to 9 miles. Maybe one day a week you could do a track work out, but more importantly you need to bang out one or two half marathons in under 1:20 one and two months before your target marathon. Think less about volume and more about intensity, as you are going to have to be one intense MF to break 2:50. Best of luck at your purist, Tim

Even a 5k isn't indicative of "speed".

You should probably add some actual speedwork. See: polarized training. If anyone brings up the cake bullshit then ignore it. Your previous results and your current goals show that you're a fairly advanced runner and given your lack of "speed" and the fact that the fastest running you do is a tempo run I think it's called for. Cut out 2 hours of cycling in your hard weeks to give yourself more time and add another easy run, make it just 3 or 4 miles, plus the speedwork.

Breaking 2:50 isn't all about high mileage, but high mileage is a BIG part of it. A mid-40s week with a long run of 16-20 is hardly running. That's 5-6mi/day. Sure there are guys that can do it on less, but they're the exception. He's got decent HM results so if the low mileage approach was gonna work, it probably would have. Mileage builds the "toughness" in the legs needed to prevent breaking down at mile 20.

In theory, 1:20 half marathon should get you below 2:50. But your raw 5K speed is a bit slow for the goals. How much do you weigh? Your 18 min suggests that you should not break 2:56. How fast can you run a mile? You might be one of those guys with a big engine whose run technique does not match the engine. This shows up at the mile to 5K range where you don't have the timing and push off force and gait to run faster, and the same lack of run technique at the faster speeds, plays out again at the tail end of the marathon where when you break down, things go to shit. At the half marathon, you're not at the top end speed for this to show up nor at the the limit of the endurance for the form/technique to limit you....just a hunch...and the bigger you are, the more it will show up at the tail end of the marathon. I've seen a number of bigger guys who can run moderately fast half IM and IM run splits who have relatively poor open marathon speed.

If you want to run sub 2:50, then you have to do a lot of running mileage at sub 4 min per K. In reality, this is not far away from your 5K speed, which is around 3:40 per kilometer.

+1

My advice:
-no swimming
-no cycling
-70-80mpw x12 wks
-Macmillan running plans
-20 every Sunday
-14-16 every Wednesday
-tempo every Friday
-occasional intervals substitute for tempo (especially once closer to race)
-Monday/Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday easy, but often up to 10 miles each
-very little at MP. Use Macmillan running calculator, run the tempos, intervals, LRs, and easy runs at those paces. Don't cheat by going too fast
-three weeks before your race, on the end of a 70-80 mile week, you should be able to do 2 mi warmup, then 17 mi at 6:25-6:30. If you can hit that workout, you will nail it.
-three week taper (15%, 50%, and very little last week)

With your 1:20 fitness, all you need is the mileage to hold a slower pace for the full 26. Some weight loss associated with no swimming/cycling for 12 weeks will help too.

Another thing, he should consider running 2x a day once or twice a week. Great way to bump up mileage in a less risk averse manner. I ramped my mileage up quickly after IMMT this fall by doing doubles. Able to get in a few 10-12mi days with lower stress.

"In theory, 1:20 half marathon should get you below 2:50. But your raw 5K speed is a bit slow for the goals. How much do you weigh? Your 18 min suggests that you should not break 2:56. How fast can you run a mile? You might be one of those guys with a big engine whose run technique does not match the engine. This shows up at the mile to 5K range where you don't have the timing and push off force and gait to run faster, and the same lack of run technique at the faster speeds, plays out again at the tail end of the marathon where when you break down, things go to shit. At the half marathon, you're not at the top end speed for this to show up nor at the the limit of the endurance for the form/technique to limit you....just a hunch...and the bigger you are, the more it will show up at the tail end of the marathon. I've seen a number of bigger guys who can run moderately fast half IM and IM run splits who have relatively poor open marathon speed.

If you want to run sub 2:50, then you have to do a lot of running mileage at sub 4 min per K. In reality, this is not far away from your 5K speed, which is around 3:40 per kilometer."


This analysis seems pretty good. I have spent time trying to improve run form (but it is still bad).

I am 6'1"- 167. I have a typical swimmers build. Long arms, broad shoulders, big feet, short legs, muscles on back.

I am not even sure that the problem is raw speed exactly.
I was always one of the fastest kids for sprints in PE class.
(Not varsity track and field fast, but not slow either).
The problem definitely is in the 800m to 5k range.


I did do interval training for a number of years 800s, 1000s, 1200s.
This did not seem to work as well as the tempo runs I am currently doing.
There was short time where I tried to both tempo runs and intervals in the same week. (This was perhaps too much training stress).


I think the advice to cut the long runs a little shorter, might free up some training stress to try to do two hard runs per week again.

I've rarely seen so much bad running advice compressed into so few posts!

Your problem isn't 800m - 5k speed, or needing more speed work, or too long of a long run, or running too many miles (LOL). It's pretty much the opposite of those things, I'd argue.

You aren't too heavy and have the raw speed (1:20 HM), you just fade as you go long because you don't have the miles in your legs. Drop the other sports for a bit and increase the miles. Worry about holding race pace, tempos and workouts to improve your threshold speed. Sure, do some fast economy work to hopefully make your running more efficient. But the real wins are going to be the mileage, and time spent around race pace.

Although you are light enough for your height, close to 170 lbs is still 40 lbs more to haul around the course compared to a 130 lbs 2:49 runner. You'll see that for your IM run splits or half IM splits, guys your size will generally "under achieve" at the full open marathon unless you can shed pounds and do more running at 4 min per kilometer pace. Realistically if you're going to run 4 min per K for a marathon, it needs to feel "easy enough" to crank it up "at will" for pretty well any run all week. Conversely you will also find that the 130 lbs fast open marathon runner will under achieve at the IM run because of the penalty that tiny guy pays hauling his bike around the course (same size wheels is a bigger percent of his top line watts)

Personally, I think your easiest path is shaving down 10 lbs and doing more speed work rather than a lot more run volume...bigger guys with swim backgrounds with bigger engines just end up getting injured. You won't get injured doing IM run training because the pace is slower, but if you want to get to pointy end marathon speed, then you need to comfortably run at those speeds often. I would add more plyometrics and skipping.

You mentioned that at shorter sprints you were plenty fast but at 800m to 5000m you fall off. This is because at 400m down, there is a big fast twitch fiber contribution to that speed. Your slow twitch fibers need to be able to take over and provide that good technique and elasticity over the aerobic ranges. It seems they can't apply enough sustained force for your size, so either you make them more efficient through adaptation, or you lose weight (ideally you do both). Your aerobic engine from swimming is your friend, but at the high end of speed or the high end of endurance, your slow twitch muscle fiber just can't do the work yet for your weight. Over the internet, this is my 2 cents. Your tempo runs need to have a lot of "over 4 min K and under 4 min K"...the old style fartlek might be your friend.

PS. You have the perfect build for Ironman and half IM, so depending on how important this marathon is, I would not mess around too much.....have a look at Kona top 15 the last few years....pretty well all centered around 6 feet 160 lbs. Unfortunately, this is actually not the perfect build for open marathons...if it was all the Kenyans winning Rotterdam and Berlin would be that big, but they are generally 25-40 lbs smaller.

Is anybody going to ask the glaring "pink elephant in the room" question? What has been your typical racing strategy? Very important piece of information that may be the missing piece of the puzzle.

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"WHEW...I really regret that workout!"..............Noone

you have run a 2:54,....that is pretty good, your doing things ok.

But split your long run into a double run day. it will help with quicker recovery, pace for both run will be quicker than 1 long run. and your overall week will be better from not been so beat up!

keep the good work...

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Unfortunately, good pacing would not have saved previous races.
I have actually run 2:54 twice.
The first time was well pace. I ran 20 miles @ 6:38, 3 @ 6:25 (ok not that part), 3 @ 7:00.
The second was: 16 @ 6:35, 4 @6:30, 6@ 6:50.

I only ran one marathon, 2:47 on a nasty day in Toronto at age 38 and weighed about 160 -163 at 5'10" It being my first marathon, i ran instead of raced it. I was only running then, with twice a day for 3 days a week, one long run of between 17-23 miles (often done at 6:30 pace) We also did a lot of very fast track workouts, probably way too hard.

18:20 for 5K coupled with a 1:20 half at 42-43 is not too shabby at all. Quite good, actually.

In your previous marathons, was there a drop off in the second half?
Fuel issues perhaps?
I suspect it's not a mental focus issue as you are used to doing Ironmans.
I like tempo runs, they force you to focus.
Whats's your pace for your long runs?

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

A couple of people have argued something like this.

A few concerns (probably inane ones).
1) I am concerned about loosing bike and swim fitness. 12 weeks is not very long. But....
Any opinions about what the minimum amount of swimming and cycling one might do so that it does not take too long to get back to 70.3 shape?
2) It seems that easy swim and bikes might be almost as effective as easy runs on recovery days.
3) I have never been injured. That may be because I am cautious. Going from 45 miles per week max to 70, probably would not be a problem. But in a period of 4-6 weeks?

1)You will lose some swim/bike fitness. For run-heavy training with swim/bike maintenance, I like 1x1h hard swim intervals and 3x1h sweet spot (no FTP) bike workouts per week. You can still fit 60-70mpw on that plan, run wicked fast, and not lose much swim/bike fitness in 12 weeks. I just do the swim/bike workouts on easy run days.

2) Disagree with the #2 premise. If your goal is to run as fast as possible, you should run as much as possible within reason. Elite runners do not substitute swim/bike for easy days (though they may add them to base run workouts). Now, this is all assuming your goal is to run as fast as possible. Only you can decide whether you want to make the tradeoff of giving up swim/bike for this period. In fact, the monotony of run only training is what brought me to tri.

3) you might get injured. In my experience, to train properly as a marathoner, you are always on the knife's edge of injury. Another reason tri is great.


I really don't think this is very complicated. You have a ton of speed, but your endurance is severely undertrained for a sub-2:50 marathoner. Miles will do the trick.

A 2:54 is close but depending on how your pacing went for that race, you might have a bit to go. Here's my recommendation for peak weeks:
Monday: Easy 6 miles
Tuesday: 10-12 miles (tempo for middle 6-8 at half marathon pace)
Wednesday: Easy 6
Thursday: 10-12 miles (6min/3min off fartleks at 6 minute pace on terrain similar to your course after a mile warmup with a mile cool down)
Friday: Easy 8-10
Saturday: rest day
Sunday: Long Run day with max of 20 miles

Although at 43 man be wary of injury...I'm 43 and can't do 2:50 goal marathon work anymore.

Good luck...

I think that if you are worried about injury you gain more by losing 7-10 lbs than you can with more mileage. Cut down your protein intake and lose some upper body swimmer muscle, and yes, sacrifice some swimming (and also biking)...you can gain it all back. Running fast marathons is not necessarily a healthy thing. You're either on the razor's edge of injury with all the fast miles, or stupidly light for your frame. Go to any local marathon and most of the guys running 2:55 and lower are a lot smaller than you. That's just the way physics works. Your engine is big enough to overcome some of that size disadvantage and you have good endurance given the 1:20 half marathon....just make the oxygen delivery demands lower on your heart by carrying around less weight and in the last 6 miles you're largely golden. Couple that with a few more miles and more miles at race speed or slightly faster and 2:50 should go down.

At IM pace you take "less flight" on each stride so there is less pounding for your body to absorb. Marathon, you are going much faster and closer to your 5K speed, so make the oxygen demands easier. It's like climbers trying to improve their watts or reduce their kilos.

In short, too much easy running.

I would (do) go for, in order of importance:

1 Long run at 1:00/mile slower than race pace. // Until this becomes easy I would hold off on the fast finish plan.

1 M-Paced run - build up to 90 minutes. // This run will be challenging - I feel it is the second most important session after the long run.

1 tempo run - 10 min Easy, 40 min Tempo, 10 min Easy

1 Easy 10 miler - Have no plan going out the door other than to run 10 miles. If you feel good add some surges and strides and hill efforts.

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My Blog

Sorry, but maximizing your marathon potential requires a dedicated training effort. You are spending too much time on the other sports. I would limit the swim and bike workouts to once a week maintenance efforts during the 12 weeks leading up to your goal marathon.

You should also be running at least 1 hour per day, and more like 90 minutes plus. 3 of those runs are easy 8 milers. 1 weekday run in the low teens and 1 long run around 2 - 2 1/2 hours. The other 2 runs are workouts. Those can be tempo runs, progression runs, mile repeats, MP run.

Bottom line is that you need to run more and more often to keep that pace for 26.2.

By the way, I recently ran an 18:28 5k and a hilly 1:23 HM at 50 years old and still don't think I can hit 2:50 in Memphis next month.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

I don't think that Mango is trying to maximize his marathon potential. He is trying to run sub 2:50. He was a D1 college athlete in a distance event and a multiple Kona qualifier. He has 2:40 potential.

Mango: I don't know if this is what you are struggling with but: I want to grab all fruit that is hanging low enough for me to not go "full" time as a runner (or swimmer or biker). And I never really know where to reach...

you have already proven that plan does not work..

more miles, is also my prescription. The swim or bike is only for days when injured or pre-injured, otherwise all workouts need to be runs. Run six days a week, tone down that long run as suggested, one week at 20miles or so and 3 hours plus, the other week shorter. Shoot for at least 60mpw. Most runs easy, one week your tempo run as noted, the other week do a 5-mile time trial, basically race effort, with a warmup and down of 2-3 miles. Maybe add a shorter race or two on the weekends. I'd like to see a hilly 10miler at least every other week.

Question is, are you going to do another mono-buttocked attempt at 2:50 while still trying to keep tri fitness, or are you going to actually run sub-2:50 ?
Don't self-sabotage.. the bike and swim fitness will come back quickly.

I'm 6'2", currently 167, raced marathons at 160.. the lighter the faster, until about 156lbs, at which point something would always break down.