X3...and I still think this should be Challenge's focus. I am not sure why thy would want to try to do full iron distance races in North America at this point. I would imagine, for example, a half distance CAC would be wildly successful. I have to believe that if they focused on putting some half irons in some great destinations (Asheville? UP of Michigan? Monterey/SLO California? Portland/Seattle?) they could build a really nice brand here. Then they could re-launch a full iron in the future once people were more familar with them as a top notch producer.

Maybe, just maybe... Challenge doesn't want to go the WTC model.

Just so you can pull your head out of the "I hate everything WTC does" camp, you realize that having a series championship is a model that pretty well every sports league uses? WTC did not invent this. Have a look at Major League Baseball, ITU WCS Grand Finale, UCI World's, FIS Alpine WC's....just to name a few. It's certainly not the WTC model, it's just how the rest of the sports work happens to work.

Every time someone suggests something to help the race in Penticton to grow back a bunch of you guys immediately say, "can't do this, that sucks, that's what WTC does, everyone should love Penticton just the way it is".

The reality is the world has offered other options. Penticton is no longer the only game in town. That ship sailed when Graham Fraser put IMLP up 15 years ago in 1999. IMLP is just as good or better than Penticton, but also suffers the same small town challenges. Their big advantage over Penticton is being closer in driving distance to 50 million more people than Penticton and for now having the Mdot logo....probably a nice message to the locals at LP having seen what happened to Pencticton, is "don't get too cocky that everyone loves Lake Placid....WTC can put a LP replica anywhere and sell it out".

Just a question to all, as I never see this come up - doesn't anyone else think an entry fee that was more of a price difference from a WTC event would have a significant impact? Whistler at $685 and Penticton at $649 is not much of a break. Even if the product is very similar, name value always makes a difference in sales. Hyundai is making some excellent cars these days that are every bit as good as manufacturers with better brand status, but you can bet they charge far less because that is the price point people will pay for their name, regardless of the product quality.

At $500 (which is still double the entry fee for pretty much any half distance race) I bet you could get a lot more newbies to take the plunge, because even though its not an "Ironman" its a lot less change to put out. And since most people have never heard of Challenge, they are probably expecting to pay less. And I would also bet you could get a lot more locals to do both. My first choice is Whistler because I have family in the area, and my wife and kids would rather go there. But at a $500 price point instead of another almost $700, I'd probably do both.

I've never done an Iron distance race. From my perspective if I'm going to invest all the time and effort necessary training for a race that long ~$200 in entry fees is pretty much irrelevant. I suspect many, if not most, first time Iron distance triathletes feel the same way. Add to that the fact that I have seen numbers between 40-60% of all athletes at iron distance races are first timers and I think you have a good sense of why the price differentiation is not pursued as a business plan. There just isn't enough multiple iron distance racers out there looking for a bargain such that you would attract enough extra racers to make up for the lost margin on your one time racers.

(FWIW, as many others have pointed out, this is also why WTC is able to maintain such a stranglehold on the long distance race. First timers and "one and done" racers don't spend as much time as the average STer debating the metaphysics of the race branding and execution. If it says Ironman, they race Ironman.)

Is Challenge a "sports league"?

nop...they want to....and they need to...and penticton badly need to. Dev is very much right about this.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Challenge appears to be a grouping of events under one umbrella. In team sports it is called league, in some individual sports we call it a series. It really does not matter. If it is a grouping of events under one umbrella, there are fairly established ways that the sporting world tends to maximize the value to customers-fans-other stakeholders by aggregation and a variety of rounds of competition of increasing importance.

Some of us are just suggesting more can be done which might benefit races such as Penticton. The way I see it right now from the outside, Penticton is not getting anything out of alignment with Challenge that they can't do by being entirely independent. It's like being a franchise holder, who gets nothing out of the mother ship....may as well set up your own restaurant then.

I agree. The bike course is amazing. I enjoyed it last year. With that said, odds are I'll never do the full there again. (never say never). I would consider the half though.

As for a Challenge Championship. Why not have a Challenge invitational finale? Invites to age group winners of other races as well as those who have performed well at multiple races and of course pros.
Kona is perfect in February for a long course triathlon. :)

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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"

Challenge business model does not incent Challenge to do this. They run a licensing model. In other words, they get paid regardless of whether there is 5000 people, or 500. Flat license fee + % of registration revenue in their model. So its the back end registration % that offers incentive to have large numbers at races but that % payout is structured less than the flat fee. At least, in Penticton. If they viewed things long view they would understand the idea of a championship event would only bolster their pocket books but I am not convinced they do. I think by witnessing the level of expansion (ie: quantity) vs. concentrating on current race stable (ie: quality) proves this to be; that being, focusing on licensing fees.

Perhaps the larger question is what value is Challenge adding? If the city triathlon model is to not include WTC then perhaps the larger dialogue may be going it alone. Saves $75,000 pro purse; $40,000 licensing fee + % registration....$125,000+ saved right off the top. Now having 1000-1500 is a more economically viable option. That said, those races such as Great Floridian or Beach to Battleship are not exactly flourishing either going it alone.

I guess my point being Challenge needs to offer more value as a licensing brand to its consituency than it currently is...basically what they provide today is a logo which is not adding value.....IMHO.

now that said to the event itself this past weekend........the organizing team this weekend put on a great event and personally my team really enjoyed being out there at the bike special needs supporting the racers. One thing is for sure, Penticton welcomes triathletes. It is in the DNA. The beer garden area was really a welcoming spot, the move to finish line on Main street a great idea; the run around the Lakeside Resort was another good change. Small tweaks added a lot of value.

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@rhyspencer

I don't normally post on these threads but I think you are Bang On on this. Kona Slots, World Championships etc, are not what the average person is signing up for. My wife did the Penticton the last year it was an IM race. Shewas representative of 30% of the field - a first timer plus through on those just doing it to better a PB with no Kona Dreams and that is 80% of the people signed up. What she knew of triathlon was the IM Brand which Challenge is fighting and also having attended before the "Big Event". It is fine to say it Challenge is more low key and laid back but I believe this may make it harder to grow the numbers. She was only going to do 1 big triathlon and she wanted the 10,000 fans cheering at the finish and seeing tons of people on the course. I attended Challenge last year and there were not many fans on Main Street. There are tons of folks who are in this category (you may even argue they are the majority), and they want a Big Race, if you are only doing 1 race, $200 extra on the entry fee is an after thought. For this group Brand and Race Size are important (same reason many folks do London, NYC, Chicago etc as their 1 and only mararthon). Not to knock the Pros or Kona Slots but they do not mean much to this segment.

It is fine to say it Challenge is more low key and laid back but I believe this may make it harder to grow the numbers. She was only going to do 1 big triathlon and she wanted the 10,000 fans cheering at the finish and seeing tons of people on the course

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bingo! 100%

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@rhyspencer

I laughed when I read this. WTC is growing and not going the WTC model = shrinking and that is exactly what Challenge is doing in Penticton. So they are nailing it.

Before you hate on me again NordicSkier I would love to race Penticton again. Not a sprint, olympic or half (I don't even want those people on the course) but the most memorable course I have ever raced, the IMC course. Problem for me is two fold 1) I don't want to be spread out over 140.6 miles with 250 people and 2) Until I get my 12 Ironman races complete I will only race Ironman events.

Numbers are up. Of course you can't see beyond the solo iron distance...


WOW. You really need to look at the fine print of that program... you are being taken.

"She was only going to do 1 big triathlon and she wanted the 10,000 fans cheering at the finish and seeing tons of people on the course."
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Then she'd have to do Challenge Roth - I am an IM fan, but I don't believe any IM crowd compares to the one in Roth.


After Roth this year many people were asking me to compare. That is a bit hard to do because it is just a different culture. I will certainly do more of IM and Challenge.


I don't do IMs for the crowds but I will admit that the enormous crowds in Roth (far beyond any IM I've done, and I've done a lot) are quite a thrill.
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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Dude, you should post more often. You nailed it.

David - I don't disagree Roth would fit the bill. I guess I should have been more specific. Realistically, most people who are looking for the bigger event atmosphere in North America are still going to stay on the continent (likely even East or West Coast depending on where they live). In North America that means an IM Race at the moment. I am big fan of Penticton (raced it 4x and spectated many other years including the Challenge) - no bone to pick with Challenge (I like the idea of some competition) but if my wife was starting from scratch tomorrow she like many others would be looking for a bigger race feel. At the moment that is not Penticton - I hope they can get that back and the numbers stabilize. Unfortunately, the FOP/KONA crowd on Slowtwitch does not drive the IM business (they are a very small % of the participants) it is the MOP & BOP that generate the larger participant #'s. The upside for the Slowtwitch crowd is that the more there are of the other folks participating, the more races there will be to choose from for all.

This is what most people around here on STdon't get. Just like we say that pros don't drive the sport, anymore, age groupers do, within age groupers, the guys in the front, might be local heros and help bring people into the sport/mentor them, but what drives the sport is the new blood that keeps coming in, without that the FOP guys will just be doing boring races with themselves and 20-50 other people....oh hang on, we have that, and its called the local bike racing scene in every city. I don't think we need triathlon to go that way.

Well, I have never posted before and have been into this sport for only 3 years now. Started with an attempt of doing an OLY my first year (almost threw up in T1) and turned into an addiction from there.

After a my second year and doing a few half distances I was thinking about IMC for 2013 in Penticton. I really new nothing of it other than the legends that get passed along about who has done what and how freaking long it is and the deadly Richters Pass (wasn't nearly as hard as they made it out to be).

Then they dropped the bomb that it was no long an Ironman branded event and in came Challenge. I guess maybe it's because I didn't get into the sport until I was older (36) but I am one of the few that seem not to care about the name as much. So I did Challenge last year. It was absolutely amazing and to be honest I am still living the excitement of that race even though it didn't go as planned time wise. I also have nothing to compare it to so I am probably in my own world. The city was extremely welcoming, the athletes as in most tri events were great to talk to and the event from my little view went off without a hitch. I couldn't tell if anything was wrong so to me it was perfect.

That is the legacy Challenge has left for me. I would do another Challenge event for sure and I will be back in Penticton one day for another go. I am registered for Whistler in 2015 (need to do the two in my own back yard now) and it has a lot to live up to. Since I have never done a M-dot race of any kind before, my expectation are high based what I have read and how everyone has put this brand on such a pedestal. I hope it is every bit as good and possibly better than Penticton but I don't know if it can.

I really hope that people take a good look at the race/event/people/volunteers etc.. and less about a brand and just have a good time racing and pushing yourself to whatever goals they have. Challenge was a superb race event for me and wish nothing but the best for it. I just hope it survives the branding stigma so that I can race my children on that course in 5 years.

I think Penticton suffered from several factors, and you really nailed two of them: WTC brand power and also how far away it is. In 1998 people expected to travel to do an IM race. Now they are so many there is normally one much closer.

One thing you didn't mention however is how the WTC is ruthless at putting on events to destroy any other races. The WTC put on its new IM Canada at the same time, then gave it extra Kona slots. I am not judging this, just pointing it out. Lake Placid has that strong local and regional pull with 50 million folks so in that way maybe it would be different than Penticton. But when Placid even hinted at leaving the WTC IMMT and INMYC popped up. Just ask The Great Floridian how they have faired since IMFL. Beach 2 Battleship is a good race that was really growing and now there is IMMD and IM Chattanooga on its doorsteps. Its not that the independent races fail, its that they are often crushed.

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http://www.johnhirsch.org
http://www.stronglikebulltraining.com

My 7 year old daughter said she wanted to do the event. She has seen me do a lot of triathlons, and she has done kids of steel herself, but this is the first adult event she said she wanted to do. Being able to see kids run with their parents is the reason she said that. Long term, I think that's good for the sport.

I like the Ironman brand and their races, but I think this is one area they could improve upon.

I think this sport has the potential to go the way of golf if it makes itself too inaccessible or elite.

Hey Rhys, and others….. not really directed at "Rhys"

first, just spent 3 days in Penticton….it actually turned out to be about 25 people from Kamloops.. watching/yelling and supporting one athlete. He had a goal of sub 12:30 but I think went 12:30:06… great athlete but his daughter came into town by surprise and him..his wife and his daughter all slowed down and ran through the shute together.

Fun thing to watch I was there and I think based on "other" rules 100% of challenge finishers would be DQ!! (family crossing the line!)

Having said that, I don't understand the Whistler idea of moving the date….perhaps the town is busy… but the direct result for our local town was that we we go and have a fun week end in Penticton. 25 people…. to have fun and support an athlete……!

The other issue I noticed is that the half will benefit from the full, looks like a great course and you don't really see half courses get the benefit from the full road closers.

In terms of relay's…I kind of like it…. one of our local ER doctors is one of the "dick-eds" he is lean and fit but can't run anymore…. so he did the swim…and a few others ran the marathon/biked etc… these guys would have not done the full.

So after 20 years doing this sort of thing…I had a different energy, not too many people out there but I just remember thinking this was kind of like the first time I watched in 1996, not too many people but a great experience…. I did not notice much difference in execution vs a 3000 people race.

RE Roth spots, I think that will help the race…

The big issue IMO is access to local resources….

Some one mentioned 500$ IIRC that is the price for the first 250 or so. I think that Kev and Jonnyo plus Symonds and Dr Tommy etc should run a local camp…tied into the race. You could run it at a net even price… some how incentivize people to sign up and then they would get a world class camp with entry…

... If you were looking to become a better athlete this is a no brainer

Anyways.. fun week end and a great event. (beer tent was awesome)

Maurice

Registration for 2015 is open. Full and half. 500$ for full. 250$ for half. Thats an ok deal IMHO.

I wouldn't worry about numbers, the duo that are taking over will shape it up in a hurry. Mike organizes possibly the best half in Western Canada. He just cares.

Caring is great and all but let's see it translated to a successful business. I keep seeing this but what exactly can/will they do differently? Penticton effectively lost the U.S. market when WTC left town. 1/5th of the entries in 2013 were American (around 110). Not sure what the percentage was this year but even at 20% we're only talking about 50-60 Americans. I'm sorry but Challenge Penticton will be nothing more than a regional/local race as long as those of us south of your border ignore it. 60% of participants for IMC and IMMT are American. Maybe that's what the new guys envision but I somehow doubt it.

I wish the best to the two men that will take over but IMO they made an incredibly stupid business decision. One of the first rules of business is to think with your head and not your heart. They broke that rule. I won't even get into taking on the debt of the previous organizers combined with losing nearly 90% of your business since 2012. The Titanic already hit the iceberg and these guys want to patch it up and sail it again. I wish them the best.

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