agree wholeheartedly. additionally, my z4 is 126-135. i don't think i've ever gone higher than 160. (bike). my rhr is 42-44.

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So, can I take an anti-T treatment because I'd be so much more productive if I didn't "pay so much attention" all the time lol. My level's probably off the charts.

Maybe I can bottle my blood and sell it to you old limp fellers?

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Empire Tri Coach
Team Gatorade Endurance
USATF Coach | NYRR Distance Pacer
Dad of twins

If you read the risks for almost any prescriptions and highlighted the really bad ones, we wouldn't take so many drugs in this country, which would probably be a good thing. Keep in mind, that doctors are not stupid, generally. I googled the therapies for the contraindications you mentioned:

testicular atrophy:
- 3x a week of HCG, pill or subcu injection
- and/or cycle the therapy (bodybuilders have been doing this for years)

enlarge breasts:
- DIM supplement (binds with the additional free estrogen created by the body when testosterone increases

You do not need to stay on this therapy forever.

I am not saying anyone should or should not use T therapy, but if you want to look better and get lead back into your pencil (as opposed to popping Viagra) then this is probably not a terrible avenue to consider. Obviously there are USADA/WADA implications; but that is not a concern for 99.99% of people.

No I have not had my thyroid checked. When I asked my PCP to check my T I also asked him to check my cortisol levels. I don't remember seeing the results on the lab sheet. I will go back and see if they did indeed check cortisol levels. To get my thyroid would I just go to my PCP asking to check my thyroid and would insurance cover something like that?

You're right I would consider myself fat. This morning I timed my 1hr treadmill session and my avg. HR was 150bpm with the last 20 minutes my HR over 160bpm. On the bike I concentrate more on finishing my 4 hr nonstop ride than I do how hard can I push myself before I crack. Yes, I could probably push a little harder but I feel like I am pushing pretty good especially after working all night and only getting 5-6 hrs sleep before going into work. Exercising at a greater intensity may help my athletic performance. But, I am unsure if it would really help my T levels.

Thanks, for posting your experience with low T. Actual experiences was what I am looking for. Not really interested in debating the ethics of T treatment. I suspect one of the first posters who said this may not be the best place to get some real life experience must of had some good insights.

but you cannot legitimately use T and even run your local 5K under existing rules

That's not necessarily true.

9/27/15. I AM GIVING THIS FOLLOW-UP TO FOLKS WHO MAY BE IN THE SAME POSITION I WAS TRYING TO DECIDE IF THEY WANTED TO PROCEED WITH T THERAPY. HERE IS MY EXPERIENCE

When I got my 2nd set of results back my T was even lower than the 164 and my free T was even worse. After reading a great deal of info on the net and talking to the Dr. I decided to go on T till the end of the year. I suspected the biggest cause of my low T was working midnights with little sleep and I was not able to change that until the 1st of the year. I am very reluctant to take even an aspirin. I really felt I needed something to carry me over till I could make the necessary life change at the end of the year.

The dosage I was given (150) was considered a larger dose but, since I was so low the Dr. felt that would be a good starting point. They said I would feel a difference in 3 weeks. I noticed a difference the next day. The 2 main differences I noticed were 1) when exercising I could push myself a little harder without just throwing in the towel due to how tough it was. 2) Most significantly, when getting home from a solid workout instead of passing out on the couch I would come home and mow the lawn (2hrs) or do other chores around the house. I also noticed my mood improved. I found myself joking around more and singing to the radio more. These effects would last for 2-3 days after the shot. I never did have any of the aggressiveness which I had read about. Even though it had not been a problem I noticed my sex drive also improved. These results lasted for about 1.5 months before I really didn't notice as big a boost.

At about1-2 months into T therapy I noticed my testicles seemed to be getting smaller (helped with comfort on the bike) and I could not say for sure but my chest may have been getting slightly larger. One month into therapy they had me take a pill once a week to keep my Estrogen levels from getting too high. When I noticed this I did some additional reading and talked to my Dr. and decided I should also be taking a HCG. Especially since my plan was to stop taking T by the end of the year. The HCG blocks the signal to your brain on how much T you have in your system so, it continues producing T naturally on its' own. So 2 months later I am taking a weekly T shot, a pill to slow Estrogen production and, a give myself an HCG shot ever second day. I was beginning to 2nd guess my decision.

2 weeks ago after taking the HCG shots for about 10 -14 days my energy level was down, I was out of breath climbing stairs, my chest felt tighter than usual and frequently it felt as though my heart was fluttering. At the same time my HR monitor started acting crazy, it showed a HR 20-40 bpm higher than usual. When I would go into one of those stores with a BP machine I would check my BP and pulse and they would seem close to normal. So I discounted my HR monitor. When I went in for my weekly T shot I mentioned my symptoms and she took the time to take my pulse. She could tell something was not right. They did not have EKG capabilities at the clinic but told me to drink plenty of water, do not exercise, and at the first sign of chest pain go to a clinic or the ER. She also said 1st thing Monday morning I should setup an appointment with my PCP to get an EKG.

I saw the Dr. on Tuesday and the EKG showed a distinct A-fib. He said immediately stop taking T and HCG and start taking an aspirin every day. The soonest they could get me into the Cardiologist was 0730 Thursday. The cardiologist gave me a more extensive EKG and an ultrasound of my heart. He seemed to be kind of surprised that I was still in A-fib. From what I can tell I have been in A-fib continuously for the last 2 weeks. He said absolutely do not take any more T or HCG and was curious why I had started taking it. He even said just this past weekend he was hanging out with another physician who had commented how many patients on T were showing up with heart issues. Cardiologist tried to get me schedule to go to hospital and get my heart shocked back into rhythm the next day. However due to issues at the hospital it will be next Friday before they can do the procedure. He put me on Eliquis twice a day and explained one of the biggest concerns with A-fib is forming blood clots. He explained not being able to get an appointment immediately maybe not be all bad because, it gave the Eliquis time to dissolve any clots that may have formed.

So I sit hit now in A-fib (can tell by my pulse, can feel it, and HR monitor still shows crazy HR) unable to exercise at all till after the procedure. I am very nervous having to wait another week before the procedure (I guess the Dr knows what he is doing) I was also told be extra careful not to get in an accident and not to ride the bike till 1 month after the procedure. I am posting this not to say don't do T therapy. Posting this so more folks can make the decision whether T is right for them or not. Knowing what I know now there's no way I would have gone on T therapy. Feel free to ask questions about my observations of this process.

I won't go into the ethical issues of T-supplementation in a racing context. First, I don't know if you race, and second, it's been addressed ad nauseum.
However, two things just for your consideration
1. a clinic that does hormonal supplementation and doesn't have EKG capabilities is odd...to say the least. Actually, an EKG machine should be in any clinic.
2. It's most likely not the testosterone that gave you the A-Fib, but the hCG. This hormone is similar in structure to TSH and can give you thyrotoxicosis, which comes with various arrhythmias. Testosterone on the other hand (ironically) protects you from A-fib...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24610804

So you are suggesting that being on t therapy for a couple months caused you to go into afib?? Not likely...or at very least, you had a pre-existing condition.
It also sounds like your pcp doesn't really know what he is doing...
Not suggesting that TRT is a joke and that people should feel free to do it..............but you shouldn't be posting false stuff because of your own health issues.

And what he said.
Again, your pcp isn't doing you any favors

I am not saying the T therapy caused A-fib. I am not a medical person and have no idea. I am going by what the cardiologist said. If I had to guess if either one of them bought this on I think it is more likely the HCG because the A-fib happened 2 weeks after starting the HCG. From what I have read many times the HCG goes along with the T therapy. Again I am not saying the T caused this. I am relaying my experiences in case others find it helpful. I am not here to tell anyone what meds they should or should not take.

I talked to the director of the clinic who I trust and is a really sharp guy and he said he is not away of any studies linking the 2. I also did lots of research on the 2 and did not come up with much. Initially I felt it was a random event and I was just unlucky and it still very well could be. But, I found it interesting the response from both my Cardiologist and my PCP.

What baffles me in this story is that since you're in persistent A-fib, you could just walk into any ER and get cardioversion done immediately instead of waiting for an opening, while possible having clots forming, and possible heart remodeling that goes along with persistent AFib...

I'm going to swim against the tide here.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

This would be a much better place is most posters stopped running their mouth and listened to other people's experiences.
Instead of pretending to be experts, everyone ought to stop and learn a little bit.

/rant

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Actually, as it turns out, Francois is a little bit of an expert. Not to speak for him, but I believe he is a biomedical researcher and has had his own issues with a-fib, undoubtedly making it a research area of particular interest. While anecdotes are interesting, I would suggest that the preponderance of scientific research is probably more meaningful. I'm a women, I don't take testosterone, don't care much about testosterone, but I do find it interesting that the scientific literature suggests testosterone is associated with lower rates of a-fib. Thanks to Francois for sharing that. I learned something today.

Unless I have the wrong Francois (although I still appreciate learning something).

2-3 days after 1 shot magical energy levels = placebo effect. Doc should have really have this guy a shot of saline. Person doesnt want to change poor lifestyle that is causing low T , and supplementing with T should be banned from racing

Holy crap. He said he doesn't compete. Does taking Antibiotics if you have a bacterial infection also make you a cheat? Maybe going to the doctor at all should be considered cheating.....

Francois,I am kind of baffled too. Initially Dr. was going to schedule me the next day or the following Monday. I do know when I went into the Drs office it was one of their craziest days ever. 23 of their 40 some employees had called in sick with some type of severe stomach bug. In fact the dr cancelled all the afternoon appointments and all the appointments for the next day. In fact I got there at 0730 and did not get out of there till 11. Then I had to go back twice after that. I hope the severity of what I am dealing with did not get overlooked due to the crazy events going on in that office.

Before they cardioversion they are going to put me under and do a transesophagel echocardiogram ultrasound (TEE) to see if I have any clots. If I have clots they will delay the procedure. Perhaps they are not worried waiting due to being on the Eliquis. Before I left I asked the lady who scheduled the procedure to check with the cardiologist to see if he felt it was OK for me to wait a week before doing the procedure. She said he was OK with it, as hectic as it was in the office I don't know if she really checked on not. I also asked her to put me on a list if they had any cancellations to please call me.

I can't say with complete certainty that I have been in A-fib the entire 2+ weeks. What I can say is every single time I have checked my pulse it is whacked and I have had symptoms for the entire 2 weeks. Each time I had a medical person check my signs it was whacked. During the ultrasound of my heart the lady running the machine was also surprised I was in a-fib right then and said I also had heart flutter going on. Which I suspected because at times I could feel something different happening in my chest.

At this time I am kind of nervous/scared but, don't really know what else I can do?

Francois what is heart remodeling? Any suggestions on how to proceed?

http://circep.ahajournals.org/content/1/1/62.full

1. go to the ER
2. get an EKG done to confirm AFib
3. have them cardiovert you

It almost sounds like a made up story doesn't it?
Always hard to make that call because the world is so odd.

But made up or not, going on hormone therapy is rife with exactly this kind of crazy bullshit. "Ok my T is up but my estrogen is screwy, add another drug, and now this is going wrong, add another drug"

Don't touch this stuff unless you are severely debilitated and old enough that you don't mind staying on it till you die.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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From an arrhythmia managing standpoint, it's baffling for sure. I'd love to have lcreswell chime in ...

Need to make sure there are no clots.

I wouldn't cardiovert you in my emerg unless you'd had a TEE or a decent course of anticoagulation, or confirmed onset of AF within last 48 hours.

No halfway decent BE/BC ER doc in the US is going to cardiovert someone who's been in fib more than 48 hours that is clinically stable.

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Fair enough. I was just surprised that cardioversion wasn't the first thing suggested but it seems that there was no easy way for the physician to know when it started in the first place.

I think it would be ill-advised to attempt to learn anything from the OP.