I don't drink cokes. But, at times I do snack on cookies or maybe chips. Yes, I know I should be snacking on carrots instead.

The rule regarding IVs is decidedly not clear as it does not specifically identify what constitutes mild versus severe dehydration, and whether the rule applies to periods after 6 hours as opposed to during 6 hours. By contrast, the rules against exogenous T are crystal clear.

You can read about a seriously dehydrated athlete who received an IV at the med tent at Ironman Hawaii at this link: http://www.sportiedoc.com/...medical-tent-lessons

Attached here is the sort of medical research that USAT is citing that suggests that PRE-hydration by IV is not supported by medical evidence. However, the very same article clearly states that IVs for severe dehydration and exercise-induced hyponatremia is "clinically indicated." The article is clear that oral rehydration is fine when dehydration is MILD...which is apparently what USAT is telling us in their rule. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC3435915/

Now from USADA. The difference between a permissable IV and nonpermissable IV is this: "In cases where IV infusions/injections are deemed medically necessary, good medical practice must ensure that: 1) a clear, well-justified diagnosis has been established; 2) no non-prohibited alternative treatment exists; 3) this treatment will not enhance performance other than to return the athlete to a normal state of health; 4) the treatment is administered by qualified medical personnel in an appropriate medical setting; and 5) adequate medical records of the treatment are maintained. Athletes and support personnel administering IV infusions which cannot be medically justified are committing an anti-doping rule violation (ADRV) whether or not the individual substances are prohibited. In such cases, both the athlete and the personnel administering the IV infusion may be sanctioned." http://www.usada.org/...ration-and-recovery/

So, if medically justified, an IV does NOT violate WADA/USADA rules. But getting one just to speed up your recovery would be a violation. This has to be about the fuzziest prohibition in the entire rule book! I doubt there are many sanctions given on IV use after an IM because it is so fraught with legal uncertainty. Primarily, I think WADA is simply trying to stop athletes from using IVs during competition, or post competition to mask other drug use, particularly if they could get an IV prior to in-competition testing. I still maintain that this is a poor analogy to the rule on PEDs, but as Monty notes education is key. I certainly was unaware of the rule on IVs.

During my annual physical when I asked my dr to run my T level the impression I got from him was he was not a big fan of T-therapy. After I got my results back he felt it is something I should consider. Last week I opted to go to a T clinic and have it retested for free. I am still awaiting the results.

I did not realize once you start T it was quite likely I would have to stay on it. This would make me think really long and hard do I want to get on T. I am the kind of guy that does not even like to take an aspirin.

Chris Boardman had low testosterone levels. He asked the UCI for permission to use testosterone to bring his levels up to normal but was denied. He retired.

Any doctor who prescribes testosterone for performance purposes when there is no real medical need should be struck off. Same goes for thyroxine or any other drug.

Just cut the bs out of your diet, calorie restriction can be bad for thyroid hormone so i would improve the quality of food unless you're getting like 8000 cal per day calories shouldn't be an issue if you're training a ton. People always push this mindset of calories in calories out which is not accurate, your body will respond differently to 8000cal of bacon than 8000 cal of blackberries. Sleep is essential!!!! I tried kush therapy... still yet to see results from that one lmao

I surf this site about 5 times a wk. I rarely post because I am just not that knowledgeable on many issues posted on here. I don't feel there is much helpful information I can add. I get some excellent technical information from this site. But more importantly I get heaps of inspiration from reading about you'll dedication to training and still get goosebumps when I read a RR about podiuming at IM Houston or Challenge New Jersey. Maybe I am living vicariously through you true athletes.

I do know my body seems to use food super efficiently. When I told some fellow cyclists that on my 70-75 mile (4HR) long rides (cool weather) I only drank 1 bottle of Gatorade and nothing else they called BS. 2 weeks ago I was at Boy Scout camp (Adult Leader) every morning I got up before daylight and ran 1 hr (6miles). When the other leaders saw how much less I ate than them and they didn't even exercised they could not believe I was as big as I am. This is part of what motivated me to get my T checked.

I have seen some threads with Testosterone in the title. I have not clicked on them because 1) up until this week I have not been interested in them 2) many times I see where there is a bunch of posts on that thread and don't want to click on a long drawn out thread.

I am not considering T to increase my athletic performance. I gave up on that years ago. I posted on here because I see it as a legitimate health issue and have heard it can increase the likelihood of Diabetes and Heart disease. I chose to post here because I am constantly impressed with the vast amount of information I see being passed back and forth on ST.uffNPuff]I saw that it was only 37 posts but it is still over 2 years as a registered member and who knows how long lurking before that. But this is still an either or proposition. If the member hasn't seen the many many threads on this subject, then the post falls into the category of incredibly naive. Even if you aren't a participant in triathlon, or cycling, or track and field, etc., just following the Lance saga, the issues in baseball and so on would inform you that there are rules in sport against PEDs. Perhaps naive is too pejorative a term. Can we at least agree on profound ignorance?

Merriam Webster: Ignorant - destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics>[/quote]

You drink lots of coffee and sleep is a problem. Start there.

I understand what you are saying, but you cannot legitimately use T and even run your local 5K under existing rules (without a TUE) although most folks really wouldn't care if someone was not a podium contender. That said, the following are the risks per the Mayo clinic. The ones in red are what I wish upon my cheating age group peers.

What are the risks of testosterone therapy for normal aging?


Testosterone therapy has various risks. For example, testosterone therapy may:

• Contribute to sleep apnea — a potentially serious sleep disorder in which breathing repeatedly stops and starts
• Cause acne or other skin reactions
• Stimulate noncancerous growth of the prostate (benign prostatic hyperplasia) and growth of existing prostate cancer
• Enlarge breasts
• Limit sperm production or cause testicle shrinkage
• Increase the risk of a blood clot forming in a deep vein (deep vein thrombosis), which could break loose, travel through your bloodstream and lodge in your lungs, blocking blood flow (pulmonary embolism)

In addition, testosterone therapy may impact your risk of heart disease. Research has had conflicting results, so the exact risk isn't clear yet.

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For a second opinion, WebMD says:
What Are the Risks?
There are some cautions men should know about.
Testosterone therapy can raise a man's risk for blood clots and stroke. Eisenberg says that men can offset that risk by occasionally donating blood.
Uncommon side effects include sleep apnea, acne, and breast enlargement. All such side effects go away if treatment is stopped.
Men who use a testosterone gel should wash their hands thoroughly after applying a dose and make sure that no one else touches the spots where they medicate. If a woman or child comes into contact with testosterone gels, it can cause side effects in them, including hair growth and premature puberty.
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And finally - class action lawsuits revolve around these issues:

Testosterone Therapy and Heart Attacks
Several studies documented several possible risks for men taking testosterone-enhancing drugs. These drugs are linked to several heart problems, including heart attacks.
One of the most recent studies, published on January 29, 2014, in the PLoS One journal, found that men older than 65 and younger men with undiagnosed heart disease had double the risk of suffering a heart attack after the first 90 days of testosterone therapy.
The study involved about 56,000 patients and was conducted by the National Cancer Institute and UCLA. Researchers compared data from patients before and after they received their first testosterone prescription.
This 2014 study was not the first to raise red flags about the cardiac risks associated with testosterone replacement drugs.
In 2010 and 2013, researchers conducted two studies published in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) and the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), respectively. These studies involved men who were frail or elderly and found that these men were more likely to suffer from several cardiac “events,” including heart attacks.
In fact, during the NEJM study, one man died and investigators said it was likely a heart attack brought on by testosterone use.

"Primarily, I think WADA is simply trying to stop athletes from using IVs during competition, or post competition to mask other drug use, particularly if they could get an IV prior to in-competition testing. I still maintain that this is a poor analogy to the rule on PEDs, but as Monty notes education is key. I certainly was unaware of the rule on IVs."

i don't know why WADA takes the view it does about intravenous hydration, i just am stating what the rule says. i think monty and i both note that education is the key. that is my point here. there are several areas where our behaviors may run afoul of WADA's rules, and we pay close attention. we are racing athletes. others, who don't pay such close attention, who are not racing athletes, or are just starting to race, or are very occasional racers, this might just not be on their radar.

this is why i think it's unwise to assume that most people out there who might enter a triathlon or a footrace are aware of the anti-doping rules. yes, you can find out that you need a TUE if you hang out on slowtwitch and happen to read threads like these. an interesting thought experiment for you is to go to USA Triathlon's website and see how many links it takes you to find out that you need a TUE for testosterone supplementation.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This would be a VERY quiet place if everyone followed that standard.

Yup. Before I took that stuff, I'd work really hard on my diet, sleeping, and training. Middle age is a very difficult time to stay fit given the children, job, family obligations, and maybe volunteer work. In my 40's I found myself running at midnight or at 4 a.m. But there was no way I was going to train 20 hours per week with 3 kids and a 60 hour a week job. Some weeks I was lucky to get in 3-5 hours of training.

So, to the OP, do what you can, be smart about your diet, and don't sweat the small stuff. In a few years the kids will be older and maybe you will be in a different place. As one person noted, you might be a better candidate for a focused weight training program for 6 months to a year.

Few people here are going to get on board with T therapy, unless you've had cancer, lost your testicles, or something worse. (can't imagine anything worse, but....)

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

This has got to be a troll ..........

At your height and weight you are *fat* You are eating far more than you describe here as well. But this is only part of the problem. You seriously *train* for an organized century ?!?!?!?!? Words fail me here. And your avg HR is far too low. You aren't training. You are going on a fun ride. (note: I am only referring to bike here as that's where my experience lies)

I am 5'9" Tall 170 and I'm Fat. I am 64 years old and my avg HR for a 50 mile ride is around 160 BPM. Oh yeah - My Testosterone Level is so low as to be almost nonexistant. :(

He clearly stated he does not compete so why are you busting his balls for breaking the rules of a sport he does not participate?

Should everyone that owns an electric assisted bike be considered ignorant for breaking the rules of bike racing even though they don't race?

Yeesh... Try reading before insulting.

Chances are there, but your arguments are not valid (especially regarding heart rate -rode 50m today at threshold with 145 bpm ave).

If the poster is serious and can't lose weight on the exercise and diet he claims, he has far more pressing problems than low T.

I would seriously look into other endocrinological disturbances that are associated with weight abnormalities.... e.g. of the pituary gland.

He has competed in running races...or did you miss that?

Yes, it is true about 2.5-3 years ago (I was 40-50 lbs lighter then) I did a marathon which was a fundraiser for hunger in Kenya. In fact about 1.5-2 years ago I did a local 5K fundraiser for the local boys and girls club. A month ago I did an organized century ride. During the ride I stopped to help another cyclist change a flat. Plenty of cyclist pasted me in the 5-10 minutes it took to change the tube. I don't consider what I do competing. I consider it more participating. If I thought it was competing I would probably given up years ago due to my lackluster performance.

I signup for these organized events as a means of trying to keep myself motivated to exercise. Which is getting harder and harder to do. The way I choose these events typically is based on how strongly I feel about the cause.

Have you had your thyroid checked?

Give the guy a fucking break. Using a substance that is not allowed in wada covered competitions doesn't mean he is never allowed to participate in exercise related events.
I'm willing to bet that half the folks on here use banned substances on a regular basis (cold meds, asthma, etc).

If he is a troll, he is doing a very good job of making a few people on this forum look like complete wankers.

If he isn't a troll a few people on this forum are doing a very good job of making themselves look like complete wankers.

Re heart rate, someone claimed the heart rate he quoted meant he wasn't training. My max heart rate is 175bpm.. I can sustain 163bpm for 20 to 40 minutes or so, over an hour 161ish. This has not changed in 15 years or so. For some people training at 145bpm to 150bpm is training hard. I used to run with a mate much smaller and 12 years older than me. When I was at 150bpm he was at 190bpm.

Hi,
I posted a similar question here a while back mines 115. Funny got nearly the same answers, which didn't really address the question. Here is what i have learned in the time since.

1) T- therapy is not a life long treatment, you can stop (by a tapper) and recover "normal for you" production levels, easier to stop in first 3-6 months.
2) Doing what some have suggested might improve your T level, but not able to find out by how much, one article I read did claim to more then double their level (which for me still puts me below normal) will need to search to see if I can find this article. But what they did was not minor tweaks but major shift to pretty much all real non-processed foods.
3) To get a TUE for low T the Dr. needs to identify what medical malfunction is causing the low T -- low T being a symptom not a failure.
4) Folks here immediately jump to the competition / cheating side of things and don't really want to discuss (im guessing have no background) in what a true low T blood work means, nor how much fixing your diet and exercise can improve it.

Good luck to you post back with what you do and find.

For me, I have not done much gotten more out of shape, and less motivated.

Not sure, but I might be the only poster on ST with 0 testosterone and working to get back in shape for another IMFL, most likely still being at a 0 "T" number. As I mentioned before, after prostate cancer diagnoses earlier this year I immediately had my testicles removed and began ADT for the remaining 5% production. My weight did slightly increase, wake up dripping wet, have hot flashes any time during the day, experience tremendous weakness in my muscles, joint/bone pain increase, LOUSY sleeping, seem to get ticked off more frequently.....no enlarged breasts yet and hoping not--:0). I have also had a recurrence of nerve issues with numbness.

The only solution to raise my "T" would be HT, BUT, since I am still dealing with the cancer, that will not be an option for some time, years, to come. My only recourse to minimize the side effects caused by low "T" is to eat very healthy and EXERCISE. Saturday I got out for 109 miles of bicycling and this Friday being my 65th birthday I am hoping to again complete a double my age birthday bicycle ride. Yesterday, I was finally able to get out for a 5K walk, something I have not done since my bilateral orchiectomy. With knee braces on and lights flashing, I was out the door at 0030 for a very slow but negative splits 3.13 miles that at least did not kill me. Wednesday I am hoping to get to the county pool for a swim of 500 to 1000 yards. BOP swimmer since I need a total right shoulder replacement. I spoke with my wife yesterday about trying for another IMFL, maybe in 2016, providing buy November this year I am at a point in my physical abilities that I would feel comfortable paying the registration fee.

LOW T sucks. ZERO T sucks more, BUT, always keeping in mind that experiencing life as it is right now can be maintained or improved upon for tomorrow. Just have to attack it as if one's life counts on it. OH, I guess it does!!!!!! Good luck to all out there.

you made my day, man. you're an inspiration.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Wow Great post. Your list of symptoms was scary (some I did not know relate to low T) but I can check most off my list. You are right, each day we can choose to do something or not. Great inspiration.