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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Hello rruff and All,

Apologies if previously posted ..... I just ran across this ...... Some nuts and bolts of Molly's record discussed in podcast ..... not an inexpensive adventure:

http://cyclingtimetrialpodcast.libsyn.com/...mens-uci-hour-record

And some other info about the effort:

http://www.beyondaero.com/...for-the-hour-record/

.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [xgep] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like she is gonna try to surpass Jeannie Longo's record!

http://cyclingtips.com/...new-uci-hour-record/

I hope she gets it! Event will be live streamed but no details yet.
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [themadcyclist] [ In reply to ]
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How many watts is she wasting with those up-turned bull horns? Half pink? Maybe not?

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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In following her progress, I don't think that is the bike she will be using for the attempt. It sounds like they are still playing with equipment.

Given that her attempt is only a week away, I'm not sure how much they will change but we won't know until she makes her attempt.
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone see th velo was story? The quotes power seemed a bit high for 48km - 270-290w. Anyone do the math on that?
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [Orbilius] [ In reply to ]
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http://velonews.competitor.com/...e-hour-record_395878

"The precise power figure she’ll be shooting for is still a secret. But watching her power figures bounce up and down on Henderson’s laptop during her 48km effort — her race-day target — suggests something in the neighborhood of 270-290 watts. That would be enough for her slight, 120-pound frame to hit the mark."

"Specialized has provided a track version of its Shiv time trial frame, and Stevens will run a pair of Zipp discs (narrower on the front, and stiffer on the rear) along with an ultra-thin track version of Specialized’s Turbo Cotton tires on race day."

If 280W gets only 48km, that is higher drag than I'd expect. CdA of ~.21. I'm also skeptical that she could sustain that power at 6000ft. I think she will reach her goal, but with less power and drag than that.
Last edited by: rruff: Feb 19, 16 15:54
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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To reach her goal with my math (and I am terrible at math), I get around 274ish watts.

BoulderCyclingCoach.com
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rockdude] [ In reply to ]
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What assumptions for CdA and Crr?
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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These are shots in the dark but they match up well with her road TT events that I had some data on.

Crr- .0038
CdA-.205

I was looking at her position in the Velonews coverage, its not very good but she is only 120 pounds.

BoulderCyclingCoach.com
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rockdude] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, that sounds about right, as far as the calculations go. Do you have her power data or just guessing?

It's sad if her CdA is really that high, but there might not be a lot she can do about it. If that is her road number, she should be a good bit lower on a track bike.
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Just guessing so it could be way off. After she completes the attempt I will have better insight for my pontificating.

BoulderCyclingCoach.com
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rockdude] [ In reply to ]
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Kristin Armstrong's 2012 Olympic data was up for awhile, but I haven't been able to find it. IIRC her power was a little under 300W (shorter effort) and I calculated a CdA of .18-.19.

Now for some poorly informed, barely educated speculation! Armstrong was #1 in the world so I wouldn't expect Stevens to match her W/CdA. Then you have altitude (should be at least 5% power drop, but she is fully acclimated) plus a few percent for the longer effort. Stevens is smaller, but probably a better climber, and they say she doesn't lose any power in the TT position (maybe she should!). So for fun, let's say Armstrong's Olympic ride was 300W/.185 for 1621. Assuming I remembered that right! And Stevens would have been a little slower in similar conditions, say 1550 W/CdA? Times .92 for altitude and longer effort, and 1.05 for being on a track bike, puts her ~1500. With Crr of .0038, 6W of transmission loss, 30in barometric pressure, 75F (is it heated?), she'd be beating 50 km/hr. I might be too generous with the W/CdA though.
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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In 2009 when I was helping Kristin set the then-record at LSWT, her lowest CdA measured about 0.203, down from about 0.217, if I recall correctly.

This clip must have been her baseline position, since she's just starting:
https://www.youtube.com/...aB2SPKNk&t=5m29s

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Kristin Armstrong's 2012 Olympic data was up for awhile, but I haven't been able to find it. IIRC her power was a little under 300W (shorter effort) and I calculated a CdA of .18-.19.

I have the data on my laptop, I remember 292W for about 40min.
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! I recall seeing an article about her WT testing closer to the Olympics which stated she got additional gains, but I doubt it would have been much at all. And that was gains compared to her baseline, which could have been higher than in 2009 with different equipment.

In your experience would you generally expect women to have a higher CdA compared to men of the same height and weight?
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience with men & women close in height or weight. Carlos Sastre seemed smallish to me, but his CdA was about 0.230~0.240 or so. Also, he didn't specialize in the time trial like Kristin did. On the other hand, IMHO his final time trial won him his 2008 Tour de France, so maybe he was a good time trialist after all!

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [BergHügi] [ In reply to ]
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I have the data on my laptop, I remember 292W for about 40min.

If I redo the numbers with that and .203 CdA for Armstrong, the guess for Stevens drops to 1330, which yields 30.05 mph or 48.4 km/hr. Probably closer to reality.

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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
http://velonews.competitor.com/...e-hour-record_395878

"The precise power figure she’ll be shooting for is still a secret. But watching her power figures bounce up and down on Henderson’s laptop during her 48km effort — her race-day target — suggests something in the neighborhood of 270-290 watts. That would be enough for her slight, 120-pound frame to hit the mark."


Does weight have any bearing on hour record performance, other than in the initial acceleration? I thought wattage, CdA and CRR were the only meaningful variables for this event?
Last edited by: Maineiac: Feb 21, 16 16:21
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [Maineiac] [ In reply to ]
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No, weight is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure they know that.
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [Maineiac] [ In reply to ]
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Maineiac wrote:
rruff wrote:
http://velonews.competitor.com/...e-hour-record_395878

"The precise power figure she’ll be shooting for is still a secret. But watching her power figures bounce up and down on Henderson’s laptop during her 48km effort — her race-day target — suggests something in the neighborhood of 270-290 watts. That would be enough for her slight, 120-pound frame to hit the mark."


Does weight have any bearing on hour record performance, other than in the initial acceleration? I thought wattage, CdA and CRR were the only meaningful variables for this event?

Weight will affect the power lost to rolling resistance, so 10% less total (rider + equipment) weight will be 10% less power lost to rolling resistance. Of course at the hour record speeds 90% of the resistance is from aero drag, so RR is only going to be part of that remaining 10%, so really the gains of less weight are pretty small.
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
No, weight is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure they know that.


Also wouldn't it have some direct effect on the turn-related acceleration on turns. Wouldn't a heavier rider experience greater fluctuation in downward force vs. a lighter rider? In my subjective experience in 4K pursuit that fluctuation can be non-trivial to experience. Particularly for someone more used to flat-and-boring 40K TTs. It takes some mental effort to handle that for an hour. And some physical effort. Not to mention that the direct effect on the fluctuation in rolling resistance. I've read that the huge track sprinters can have over 200kg of downward force mid-bank. That's a lot!

Oh, I'm talking about rider weight, here, which is (mostly) uncontrollable. I agree that equipment weight is nearly irrelevant by comparison.

Edit: By "downward force" I meant force pressing into the track...not really downward in opposition to the gravity vector.
Last edited by: trail: Feb 21, 16 17:41
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Wouldn't a heavier rider experience greater fluctuation in downward force vs. a lighter rider?


The relative variance in effective g forces experienced between straights and turns is a function of speed and turn radius, not weight. e.g. you might experience ~20% variance on a 333m track at these speeds (I haven't actually calculated it precisely, just a reasonable guesstimate based on other similar calculations).

Here's something I wrote about such things including a chart to show estimated g forces at different speeds on a 250m track:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2015/01/g-force.html



http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Last edited by: AlexS: Feb 21, 16 18:38
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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AlexS wrote:

The relative variance in effective g forces experienced between straights and turns is a function of speed and turn radius, not weight. e.g. you might experience ~20% variance on a 333m track at these speeds (I haven't actually calculated it precisely, just a reasonable guesstimate based on other similar calculations).

Here's something I wrote about such things including a chart to show estimated g forces at different speeds on a 250m track:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2015/01/g-force.html



Thanks! Very interesting blog, and it clarifies the physics for me.

But I'm a little confused about the term "force." When you use the term "g force" you're not talking about force, but acceleration. Acceleration is a function of speed and turn radius.

And the force to counter-act that "g force" would then be proportional to mass, right? Given an acceleration (due to velocity, radius) a more massive rider will feel more force. Right?

Particularly in the case of an hour-rider who's going to be riding near the black line on the turns, very little banking to "absorb" the additional force? It is taxing. I've never done an hour on the track, but I know that if I'm sprinting along the black line at the end of a scratch race at near 40MPH, it takes a lot of physical effort to hold the turn correctly down there near the apron. It's not as noticeable in a 4K pursuit - less velocity. But I imagine if it takes a lot of effort in a sprint there must be some cumulative fatigue over an hour.
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
AlexS wrote:


The relative variance in effective g forces experienced between straights and turns is a function of speed and turn radius, not weight. e.g. you might experience ~20% variance on a 333m track at these speeds (I haven't actually calculated it precisely, just a reasonable guesstimate based on other similar calculations).

Here's something I wrote about such things including a chart to show estimated g forces at different speeds on a 250m track:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2015/01/g-force.html




Thanks! Very interesting blog, and it clarifies the physics for me.

But I'm a little confused about the term "force." When you use the term "g force" you're not talking about force, but acceleration. Acceleration is a function of speed and turn radius.

And the force to counter-act that "g force" would then be proportional to mass, right? Given an acceleration (due to velocity, radius) a more massive rider will feel more force. Right?

Particularly in the case of an hour-rider who's going to be riding near the black line on the turns, very little banking to "absorb" the additional force? It is taxing. I've never done an hour on the track, but I know that if I'm sprinting along the black line at the end of a scratch race at near 40MPH, it takes a lot of physical effort to hold the turn correctly down there near the apron. It's not as noticeable in a 4K pursuit - less velocity. But I imagine if it takes a lot of effort in a sprint there must be some cumulative fatigue over an hour.
As I said in the blog, g "force" is a misnomer, it's really an acceleration rate. However the term g force entered the popular lexicon so long ago that it's become a ubiquitous way of normalising forces due to acceleration that we experience as "weight" to that which a human experiences when standing on the surface of the Earth.

The actual force is obviously proportional to the mass being accelerated (F=ma), but that's not what was asked, which was about the relative difference experienced while riding on the track. In other words, two riders going at 40mph on the track will experience the same g-force in the turns irrespective of their mass. That's because they are being accelerated at the same rate (and g-force is actually the rate of acceleration).

Put it this way, a 100kg guy normally "feels" the 100kg when standing, and of course will "feel like" ~150kg or so when travelling around the banking at speed. The 50kg guy will "feel" 50kg when standing and ~75kg when travelling around the banking at speed. Both are experiencing an acceleration of 1.5g.

The banking angle at the black line is the same as it is at the top of the track. Tracks generally don't have radially variable banking. It only becomes flatter on the cote d'azure.

The effort to hold a good line is minimal on well designed tracks and you barely notice the need to try and stay on line. On less well designed tracks, there can be a tendency to be pushed outwards a little and that create more tyre scrub. Such tracks are not generally fast as a result. There is a trade off with track radius and banking angle. The shorter the turn radius, the steeper the banking needs to be but that also means the minimum speed to ride safely increases.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
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Re: Evelyn Stevens, UCI hour record attempt, Feb 27 in CO [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
I have the data on my laptop, I remember 292W for about 40min.

If I redo the numbers with that and .203 CdA for Armstrong, the guess for Stevens drops to 1330, which yields 30.05 mph or 48.4 km/hr. Probably closer to reality.

I am getting older and my memory is getting weaker. According to the published data Armstrong did 297W for 37:34 min.

Here the data: https://www.flickr.com/...n/dateposted-public/
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