Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4

Sep 12, 14 18:48

Post #1 of 44 (5702 views)

I need help designing a plan for the end of this year and winter, and I need your input. I was hoping I could get your input on what I've been doing for the last 6 months or so. This is my first season racing and have learned a lot since riding and racing, but I want to progress as much as possible. Short background-30 years old, living in Southern California, former triathlete, and long distance runner. Love to run but stopped to spend time on the bike and fell in love with it.The last time I tested my FTP is 270 and I'm 148 pounds. I've been doing some form of this routine for about 3 months and I'm curious if you can help guide me in a better direction or direct me to someone who can. Thank you.

Monday - Evening Trainer Ride

10 minute warmup about 50-75%. 6x3 minutes at 315 watts(117%), 2 minutes in between at about 50% or 135 watts. Then, 4x2 minutes at 324 watts(120%). 2 minutes in between at 50%. 10 minute cooldown. I attempt to do the intervals to my power drops by about 8%, but it all depends on how much time I have. The workout is definitely hard and I make sure I can do at least what I stated above.

Tuesday- Evening Ride: Approx 2 hours

Sweet spot to upper tempo ride for entire duration. 230-250 watts, trying not to go below 230 in the ride.

Wednesday- Evening Ride: Approx 2 hours

20 minutes at 88%-94% FTP to a local hill. 5 or 6 hill repeats(approx 9 minutes) at 103%-111% FTP. It's about 4 minutes between repeats where I am riding at 50% downhill. 20 minute ride back at about 85% FTP.

Thursday - Evening Ride: Approx 2 Hours

Sweet spot to upper tempo ride for entire duration. 230-250 watts, trying not to go below 230 in the ride.

Friday- Evening Ride: Approx 2-3 hours

Tempo ride at about 82-84% FTP for entire duration.

Saturday: Morning Ride

Group ride. Usually about 2.5-3 hours. About a tempo ride.

Sunday: Race

Usually a crit.

I add some variety into this routine each week. Some rides on the trainer I will do 2x20 minutes at 100%FTP with a 10 minute warmup and 10 minute cooldown. Other times on the trainer I will do 2x20 minutes at 100% with 30 second out of the saddle sprints every 2 minutes. 10 minute warmup and cooldown.

Recently I started going to the gym and strength training(legs) for about 45 minutes before a trainer ride. When I do go to the gym before riding the trainer I will do the 2x 20 minute routine(without sprints). I may cut the lifting out when I'm racing but we'll see since I just started going to the gym.

Last edited by: xrookiex: Sep 12, 14 19:02

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 18:58

Post #2 of 44 (5670 views)

xrookiex wrote:

I need help designing a plan for the end of this year and winter, and I need your input. I was hoping I could get your input on what I've been doing for the last 6 months or so. This is my first season racing and have learned a lot since riding and racing, but I want to progress as much as possible. Short background-30 years old, living in Southern California, former triathlete, and long distance runner. Love to run but stopped to spend time on the bike and fell in love with it.The last time I tested my FTP is 270 and I'm 138 pounds. I've been doing some form of this routine for about 3 months and I'm curious if you can help guide me in a better direction or direct me to someone who can. Thank you.

Monday - Evening Trainer Ride

10 minute warmup about 50-75%. 6x3 minutes at 315 watts(117%), 2 minutes in between at about 50% or 135 watts. Then, 4x2 minutes at 324 watts(120%). 2 minutes in between at 50%. 10 minute cooldown. I attempt to do the intervals to my power drops by about 8%, but it all depends on how much time I have. The workout is definitely hard and I make sure I can do at least what I stated above.

Tuesday- Evening Ride: Approx 2 hours

Sweet spot to upper tempo ride for entire duration. 230-250 watts, trying not to go below 230 in the ride.

Wednesday- Evening Ride: Approx 2 hours

20 minutes at 88%-94% FTP to a local hill. 5 or 6 hill repeats(approx 9 minutes) at 103%-111% FTP. It's about 4 minutes between repeats where I am riding at 50% downhill. 20 minute ride back at about 85% FTP.

Thursday - Evening Ride: Approx 2 Hours

Sweet spot to upper tempo ride for entire duration. 230-250 watts, trying not to go below 230 in the ride.

Friday- Evening Ride: Approx 2-3 hours

Tempo ride at about 82-84% FTP for entire duration.

Saturday: Morning Ride

Group ride. Usually about 2.5-3 hours. About a tempo ride.

Sunday: Race

Usually a crit.

I add some variety into this routine each week. Some rides on the trainer I will do 2x20 minutes at 100%FTP with a 10 minute warmup and 10 minute cooldown. Other times on the trainer I will do 2x20 minutes at 100% with 30 second out of the saddle sprints every 2 minutes. 10 minute warmup and cooldown.

Recently I started going to the gym and strength training(legs) for about 45 minutes before a trainer ride. When I do go to the gym before riding the trainer I will do the 2x 20 minute routine(without sprints). I may cut the lifting out when I'm racing but we'll see since I just started going to the gym.

If you're 270 and 138, you are not cat 4. That is lower cat 2. Seems hard to believe you could get to 4.5w/ kg in your first year, but I guess plausible.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 19:01

Post #3 of 44 (5660 views)

Shoot, I meant 148 pounds. Edited that post 2 times and didn't catch that. Thanks. I wish I was 138 pounds.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 19:03

Post #4 of 44 (5650 views)

xrookiex wrote:

my FTP is 270 and I'm 138 pounds.

Race hill climbs. Learn to never see the wind. You should do fine.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 19:09

Post #5 of 44 (5640 views)

>If you're 270 and 138, you are not cat 4. That is lower cat 2. Seems hard to believe you could get to 4.5w/ kg in your first year, but I guess plausible.

It's SoCal. High W/kg alone isn't enough to win crits in Cat 4. I was 330W @ 77kg, nearly the same W/kg, and was pack fodder until I learned how to win.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 19:22

Post #6 of 44 (5610 views)

Question - what are your strengths and weaknesses in your crits? Have you tried a variety of tactics, and, if so, what have you learned about yourself in the process?

Your total hours look good. You have the right kinds of intervals. Looks heavy on intensity. Your "easy" rides are at 230-250W, and that's harder than mine @ 330W FTP. Look up the polarized training stuff in this forum. Go easy on easy days, then knock the intervals out of the park on interval days.

On your 2x20, 30 seconds sprint is longish. Mix in some 5-10 second sprints where you're really hitting peak power and getting the cadence up. Here in SoCal if you weren't able to break away and are coming out of the last turn in a crit you *need* that acceleration because this area is loaded with good sprinters.

And seems a bit heavy on racing. I might do crits 2-3 weekends in a row in a core part of the season, but otherwise I try to spend a few weeks building between races.

Last edited by: trail: Sep 12, 14 19:23

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 19:24

Post #7 of 44 (5605 views)

You're doing way way to many hard efforts a week, if that schedule is representative of your training. At least 2 days a week should be well below 75%ftp.

Bike racing, especially crits, is very different that running/tri. The strongest person rarely wins. Usually the smartest person wins.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [trail] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 20:06

Post #8 of 44 (5546 views)

Thank you all for the responses. I had a feeling I was doing to much and should back off a bit on some days. It's a hard concept for me to grasp but I will definitely start so I can be "fresher" for harder days. I raced almost every weekend or every other weekend for the last 4 or so months because I wanted to gain experience and also move up to Cat 4. I still have a lot to learn but it definitely helped to race as much as possible. For example, in some races I just sat mid/back of pack and watch how everyone moved around and used various tactics. From what I've seen a lot of people do not work together at my level, even amongst my own team. Strength would be maintaining position(or trying to) and always trying to move up. I feel like I get stronger as the race goes on so I think my endurance is good. I'm not the best sprinter so it's hard to place well when most of the races come down to a sprint finish. The breakaways I've experienced didn't work together and got caught, and I don't think I have the power for a solo breakaway in most races. I'm still learning but off the top of my head those things jump out.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 20:17

Post #9 of 44 (5528 views)

13 hours a week with all of those zone 3 or above. Too much intensity.

More zone 2
Go hard 2 or 3 days a week
More hours if you can. If sunday is a crit add 3 hours of zone 2 that day as well.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 20:29

Post #10 of 44 (5514 views)

Definitely too much intensity, though as you race more, you can use that since no trainer ride or outdoor ride is the same as a race. I did 43 bike races this year (counting omnium/stage races as separate; my team in total lined up 577 times to race!) so not a lot of need for intensity unless you are targeting some early Spring crit or something. Just follow the Euros LOADS of zone 2 riding then race yourself into shape plan. Plus, that experience is what will help and you will eventually win one or a few and also crash out of a few. That is just part of bike racing. Your current FTP and weight certainly isn't your weak spot for road racing, but maybe for crits when you really need to be a sprinter to get out of the 3s.

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 20:38

Post #11 of 44 (5508 views)

Do you know how to race? This is a serious question as most don't have the patience to race in the bunch so either they become break dudes or fodders.

Your numbers are overqualified for the category, are you not winning because of some other reason?

Pack Positioning, bike handling, and top end speed are often neglected in today's power based crit racing.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 22:39

Post #12 of 44 (5448 views)

don't take the criticism too hard. even people born with cat 1 power (and that happens) spend a while losing over and over till they figure out how to race.

cat 4 isn't easy in many parts of the country. at many races, and crits are always sort of chaotic.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 22:46

Post #13 of 44 (5442 views)

Here is the best thing you can do......hang out with bike racers.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 23:00

Post #14 of 44 (5430 views)

You need some rest days. I bet your FTP is higher than what you think but you can't access it because you are always tired.

Get a coach

Get teammates and learn how to race. You also need to train to sprint since most lower cat races end in sprints..

Tell us about your results.

Also, if you were to rest and race fresh you might get results in a break.

Last edited by: valygrl: Sep 12, 14 23:02

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [valygrl] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 23:06

Post #15 of 44 (5423 views)

valygrl wrote:

You need some rest days. I

If by rest you mean, 2 hours easy-ish, I agree.
If you mean by doing nothing at all, I disagree.
Don't plan rest days, take them when you have to because life invades or you are injured.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 23:14

Post #16 of 44 (5417 views)

Are you a bike racer or a triathlete?

Last edited by: valygrl: Sep 12, 14 23:15

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [valygrl] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 14 23:21

Post #17 of 44 (5409 views)

valygrl wrote:

Are you a bike racer or a triathlete?

I am a cat 3 bike racer and coached my wife from giving birth to winning her first pro race this year. There were no planned rest days. She rode more hours than this guy too.

I rode even more hours than hers but I didn't pick good parents :(

rest days will happen for many reasons (work, life, injury) I just don't plan them. An hour of zone 2 is better than nothing at all.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Last edited by: jackmott: Sep 12, 14 23:22

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 14 4:01

Post #18 of 44 (5318 views)

As Coach Kunu says, "The less you do, the more you do. Now pop up."

I'd dial back the intensity, and get more intense....when you're intense, that is. In weightlifting terms, power lift. Lift heavier, recover more.

And less recovery time between intervals. As in a race where you can't call a TO cuz you're burnin'.

And lastly, learn how to race. Through racing.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 14 5:19

Post #19 of 44 (5268 views)

I guess everyone is different on this. I had planned rest days on my schedule,1 or 2 a week. And I only missed planned workouts about 2ce in the last year, because of illness. If I didn't plan a rest day, I would never rest.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 14 5:24

Post #20 of 44 (5259 views)

There are a good number of ways to set up a winter plan and a good number of those will work for a good number of people.

As a Cat 4-Cat 1 I had a coach and followed the training plan to a T, usually starting out in Nov. doing 2x10-15 min tempo style efforts on Tuesday, easy on Wed., 20-30 mins of 4-5 min hill repeats at or above threshold Thurs., then 3-5 hour group ride on Sat and more moderate 3-4 hours Sunday. Build from 10 up to 15 (20+ as Cat 1/2) hours a week over the course of the winter with about 60 mins of efforts on Tues. and Thurs, spirited group ride Sat and Sun. I'd be roaring in Mar/April, pretty toast by June, and sort of rebound by late Aug./Sept.

Then I got a career with lots less time so I just did 3-4 weekly 1 hourish rides of sweetspot/tempo and then 3-4 hour group ride on Sat and another 2 hours easy on Sunday, usually between 9-12 hours. That worked even better for me and I slowly improved over Apr. and May and was storming all summer. No real huge peaks or valleys, just high, consistent fitness with small bouts of really good days.

I'm sure you can find someone with success with most any plan. With your numbers, though, you've already been very, very successful. Now you've got to put it in play.

I'd say most important at this point: work on your sprint. Every week. Big gear, small gear, uphill, downhill, flying, from a stop, everything. Every single race will have a crucial sprint; almost always for the finish, but even if you solo you've got to break that elastic at some point which will most likely be some sort of sprint effort. Work on it. It's huge.

Significantly improving your sprint will probably serve you better in the 4s and 3s then most anything else you can do (besides the tactical points of learning positioning and all, which might take a bit longer) when you have numbers like yours.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [valygrl] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 14 5:28

Post #21 of 44 (5252 views)

valygrl wrote:

I guess everyone is different on this. I had planned rest days on my schedule,1 or 2 a week. And I only missed planned workouts about 2ce in the last year, because of illness. If I didn't plan a rest day, I would never rest.

Agreed. I used to always have one planned day off the bike and one planned <1 hr super easy. I think that's pretty important for really ambitious newer riders. In my first few years I would have absolutely ridden myself into the ground without a planned day off. It kept me honest (still not honest enough).

Now I just take a day off when I'm tired, but that took me lots of years of experience to accept that and actually do it. I can generally always make time to ride at some point during the day, but some times you've got to rest. And if the only way to do that is to plan them every week, then do whatcha gotta do.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [valygrl] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 14 6:41

Post #22 of 44 (5191 views)

Most every (serious) bike racer I know does what jackmott says: ride every day (not always hard), and take days completely off the bike only when circumstances force it

I think people tend to make things more complicated than needed. You can go a long way with just this: ride hard 2x or 3x per week, ride not too hard the rest of the time, ride a lot, and race as much as possible.

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 14 6:44

Post #23 of 44 (5184 views)

> From what I've seen a lot of people do not work together at my level, even amongst my own team.

Yup. None in Cat 4. It starts, a little bit, in Cat 3. There's tons in masters racing. If you're not strong enough, yet, to solo attack or win a field sprint, the best thing to do is to start a bit of teamwork. Forget about big leadout trains. Never happens. My first two Cat 4 wins came via 2-man teamwork. The two strongest guys on the team coordinate. In my case neither of us were field sprinters, so we had a system of attacking at about 1 to go. One guy attacks hard and gaps the field, second guy just sits on the first guy. First guy goes about as long as he can, ideally through the last turn. This takes self-sacrifice because the first guy may not finish in the top 20 (thought one time we took 1-2).

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [xrookiex] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 14 7:00

Post #24 of 44 (5163 views)

As has been said, back off the intensity. I would advise you don't use a powermeter at least 2-3 days a week. Logical thinking can retard your progress as an athlete if it's done too much. Just knowing you are recording your workout is enough for most people to be thinking too much. You need to feel your way through more workouts. I'm not a neuroscientist, but to dumb it down, think of having some workouts where you function from the cerebellum and others that are frontal cortex, or something along those lines.

If anybody is still wondering if the OP "knows how to race", just look at that bit that says "Cat 4". Of course he doesn't, and how could he without much much more experience.

To the OP, your spirit is strong, but you want to keep it that way so don't be an offseason hero...trust me, you'll regret it ;)

Re: Racing Cyclists: Help for a Cat 4 [BrianB] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 14 10:45

Post #25 of 44 (5048 views)

BrianB wrote:

Most every (serious) bike racer I know does what jackmott says: ride every day (not always hard), and take days completely off the bike only when circumstances force it

I find that strange as I don't know many serious bike racers that do the above. At least not many good ones. There are exceptions of course, but with Strava and all it's easy to follow and I see a good number of days taken off, some people it's the same day every week, some it's after a hard week of training or weekend of racing, etc (when they're tired). Knowing when to take a day off and rest simply for the sake of resting; that's a good thing to have.

Riding until circumstance forces it can be a dangerous game to play for some.

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