When planning nutrition you need to make certain assumptions IE:

Starting point calories at 7 am

Distribution of calories (systemic IE liver/blood vs localized.. muscle glycogen)

Distribution of calories according to % muscle mass (IE 2/3 legs, 1/3 upper body) I may be corrected on this but from what I have read it is very hard under load (race situation) to re-patriate stored muscle glycogen in the arms to the legs.

Again some more guesses:

You need to determine burn rate:

Swim…take a guess based on the info out there, also adjust your guess based in if you kick like a demon or swim with just a light flutter.

Even though we do metabolic testing for athletes specifically around execution at IM….a power meter is pretty damn accurate for gross calories vs power. I would say that the KJ or calorie function of a PM is the least appreciated and most under utilized feature of a PM (If you are racing IM)

On the run…plenty of pretty damn accurate calculators vs metabolic testing based on weight, ambient temp and pace.

Once you know burn rate then you need to (sorry) guess again…as to % contribution of fat vs CHO

For the sake of argument most FOP AG at .75-.80 IF are at about 60-70% Carbohydrate.

On the run it appears to drift a lot more with athletes starting at 60% and drifting up to 90% at the end for a given steady state….everyone is different here but thats what I see, from my basic experience you could perhaps guess at 70-75% CHO contribution on the run.

So once you know or guess at inputs then you need to experiment in training, for 1st timers perhaps 2-3 times a year with a special brick of 120km and 21 km at load or even faster at best effort, basically you are testing both GI distress and numbers in order to get a clear idea. You can go further and combine a swim at distance as well.

Basically very important to understand that from the minute you get up everything you do, every choice you make etc sets you up for the last 13 miles.

Maurice

Some people can't handle any solids and do great on only liquids. Others, like myself, need some solid food as my stomach can't handle only liquids and my stomach would be growling at me all day. Others just like something solid to eat during the day. You learn from experience where you fall on that scale.

I did have a nutrition plan, it was just very fucked up and wrong. Yes I screwed up.

I am not celiac but I have a lot of problems with gluten when I am in heavy training. If I have a beer or two and a burger on a normal bun I will be crapping my guts out the next day. I have been tested for celiacs and nothing came up. I just try and limit as much gluten as I can. But I sure like my beer.

I agree but….

To be fair to the OP he represents about 2/3 of the field on any given day at any given IM who fuck up their nutrition, guys like myself included, guys who have done 30 IM like Dev included. Multiple Kona champs included. He is being honest with himself….IE the rare thing is that he is acknowledging errors and then looking for help.

Maurice

Thanks, my point exactly. My plan is to try a product called Tailwind on my ride on Wednesday. Going to try for no solids. Will ride the two loops of the IMWI course and aim for 250-300 calories an hour. Playing with if I should try base salt licks also or not. My goal is always to keep things as simple as possible, thus living off the course at Boulder. Obviously this didn't work so on to plan B.

Good starting point. Let's get this going in the right direction.

1. No pizza ever, ever during any physical activity, yeah I caught that in your last paragraph, you are not out there to enjoy food while you are riding.
2. No fat and no fibber on the race day
3. Go with liquids and semi solids until you can prove that your stomach can tolerate more, the higher the intensity or the higher the temp, the more liquid nutrition is needed
4. Sweat rate test, dial in the fluid needs, dial in sodium levels
5. Apply help given above few posts and arrive at baseline calorie count per hour based on burn, choose products carefully based on science and what agrees with your stomach
6. Create a fueling schedule, adhere to it and rehearse it every single day across all temp and intensity ranges
7. Pay attention to run pacing and subjective feelings on the run
8. Tweak and adjust
9. Pay attention to any GI discomfort, troubleshoot it, eliminate factors one by one

Yes, it is that tedious process. But once you dial this in, no more DNFs.
Sorry, I was a bit harsh. I see this too often. Eating pizza on century rides......:) no way, that stops now.

I was there!! Sorry that you dnf!!! It was really really hot on the bike so that hydration seems fine to me. I had a little trouble on the bike my sports drink was too saturated with stuff and accumulated in my tummy i usually consume 200 cal per hour but brought it up to 300 for the race and it was too much stuff in my stomach (i'm really small) so i laid off the nutrition (sketch) a bit and hydrated bounced back. It was a good learning experience! !! My first triathlon and i did really well!! Excited for my 2nd !!!

I'd bet you need at least 350-450 cals per hour on the bike. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 2500 cals total for a 6 hour bike should be about right. In liquid form (Infinit) this isnt that hard to achieve at all. I've had the same thing happen to me and was only consuming about 1000-1200 cals on the bike. By miles 15-20 I would be puking. Coach had me try cramming down 2000 cals on a 5 hour training ride and it was like someone had light a match under my butt when I started my brick run. I'd never had so much energy or felt better. Fast forward to IM and adding 250 cals per hour on the run and I'm sweet all the way to the end. Its crazy that 800-1000 cals can make that much difference, but it definitely does. Try the same experiment once you get some Infinit and let us know how IMWI goes.

The math and logistics of all these calories does start to get difficult. I have settled on trying Tailwind. With the sodium content being so high I am thinking extra salt added is not a good idea. I also don't want to mix too thick. So if my goal is 400 calories an hour and I mix two- 100 cal scoops in a bottle I am looking at needing to drink two bottles an hour or about 12 bottles over the entire ride. Ouch! Am I over simplifying this? I obviously need to practice and refine this and will try it out on Friday. But any other suggestions for Friday's testing procedure? Will not have time for a pre swim unfortunately.

Part of your problem is most likely too little sodium, so I wouldnt worry about it being too high in Infinit. All the levels are adjustable. My mix is over 500mg per serving, so about 2.5-3 grams of sodium intake per IM bike leg. The beauty of Inifinit is that you can concentrate it into a 'calorie' bottle thats a sludge and then using a BTA bottle like Speedfil or xlab torpedo you can mix with water on the fly. I cram 1600 calories into a single 24oz bottle this way and never stop at special needs and just pick up water at aid stations. I've got the calorie bottle marked so I know to mix a quarter of the calorie bottle at a time and then fill the rest of the Torpedo with water to dilute. 400 cals a pop and just make sure I get through that every hour. Its actually very simple once you practice it a few times. I usually keep a few spare gels just in case, but otherwise thats it.

Might be too late now but, the beautiful thing about Infinit is you can create a custom blend. My blend gets me 301 cal per 20oz bottle. Between the large Profile BTA and two bottles behind my seat in able to carry 1200 cal right there. Throw some more powder in a zip loc, put it in special needs and there's your refill. Hope you find your answers!

How was your gluten intake in the days and weeks prior to the race?
If you are still enjoying gluten beers and letting things slip by on a regular basis with a significant intolerance, it could really mess with your system. If I knew I had an intolerance like this (and I do as a Celiac), I would surely be paying 100% close attention to it every day, not just "try and limit as much as I can". Maybe you already do this leading up to a race, but reading your response sure caught my eye.

Since you seem to have gotten a lot of really good nutrition advice, I'll take a swing at another issue I think caused you problems.

I'm not sure why you came out to Colorado 8 days before the race. At just over 5400 feet it really isn't that high and in some ways, for someone in shape it is more mental than physical. If your in Ironman shape, or even close to it, a day or two would have been a better idea. Studies have shown that altitude doesn't begin to have a real affect on your body till your over 7,000 - 7,500. If you are in good shape, a couple of days with a couple shorter workouts and your breathing should adjust at the lower elevations on the Front Range. Your swim and run will be slower, but if you listen to your body you should not really have any major issues. The bike, at a normal exertion pace should actually be faster.

The bigger problem you would have coming from Minnesota is the heat and lower humidity in Boulder. Your sweat rate will be less and in turn your fluid intake would be less than in hot and humid Minnesota. Six bottles of water in a 100 mile bike ride along with Gatorade is a lot. Even for a bigger guy. I think you would have benefited from doing some research on the subject before coming out. I live and train between 7,700 and 10,500 feet. My fluid and food intake on my workouts at home is very different from when I go down to sea level and race. I made the mistake once, tried to live off what I do at home at IMFL. Worst race of my life, could barely finish the run. All because I didn't adjust my plan for conditions that were very different from my training location.

My take, if your going to race in different parts of the country be sure that you understand what you are getting into and adjust accordingly.

Hopefully you were eating gluten when you were tested. If you had avoided it for a prolonged period of tiem, your antibody levels may drop too low to be detected. They fail to let people know this sometimes.

Well said. There seems to be a lot of good advice on this thread. I'll give you my 2 cents (which may be worth less than that). For context, I'm 43, 5'10", and have weighed 135-139 on race day for my races over the past 18 months, though I also weighed 155-170 (!) for much of the 12 years of doing triathlons before that. I've done four 70.3 races and three 140.6 races over the past five years. Never DNF'd even though my first 70.3 finished up at 102 degrees (Lake Meade) and my most recent 140.6 was IM Canada (very cold, very wet). With that said, here's what I do:

Pre-Swim
I try to have a moderate-sized breakfast 3 hours or so before the start. Usually about 500-600 calories. I should probably eat more and earlier, but I don't like getting up before 4am. I then have a banana 1 hour before the race, and a GU 15 minutes before the swim.

Bike
300 calories an hour. That's about all I can handle between liquids and solids. For a 70.3, I can do all liquid (HEED works well for me). For a 140.6, I find I need to chew on something as well -- more for he mental aspect than the fact that I need actual solids in my stomach. For solids I've used Honey Stinger Waffles and Cliff Bars for no other reason than that's what's been offered at the races I've done and they've worked fine. I also take in a salt tab every two hours or so. More if it's really hot.

Run
100 calories an hour. Usually a single GU block every other mile and whatever's salty at the aid stations on the alternate miles (chips or pretzels). I wash each solid down with a few quick sips of fluid. I usually start with Gatorade and deeper into the run I'll typically alternate with coke (if I need caffeine), chicken broth (if I need more sodium), or just water (if my gut can't handle more sugary drinks). I'll also try to down a salt tab every hour.

Finally, on my long bike rides and long runs I try to take in exactly what I'll do on race day both in terms of contents and timing.

That's all I got. Nutrition is very personal. But that's what works for me. Also, the better trained I am on race day, the less stress I feel I generally have on my GI system.

I finished my first half and first full in more than 12 years this summer

Breakfast for both was cliff bars, coffee and water

Neither race was completely optimal in terms of nutrition - the first I over or under-hyrdated, its difficult to tell, but I am more certain that my problem was related to continuing to drink faster than my stomach could clear it, that and the heat didn't help the result was feeling bloated for the entire run whilst continuing to drink and having a banging headache for some time afterwards

For both my strategy was liquids only - for the IM I mixed 18 Gu's gels in a single 700ml bottle with water and then got one water bottle at each aid station for the IM, I then took a swig of gel and drank water between aid stations - approximately 1 hour apart

That worked perfectly. My cunning plan for the run was to do the same - I had prepared another bottle with 800 calories or so and had a running belt but as I got back in to transition I lifted up the bottle and decided I could not face carrying that for 3+ hours and ditched it.

I thought that I'd be safe with gatorade, water, coke and orange slices and I was.

Next time I'll do exactly the same thing on the bike but with fewer calories based upon a slightly more ambitious bike target and then I will use nutrition on the course for the run.

Thread Over.

MNDiver- I assume you do not live in Colorado?
If you ever come back, e-mail me at RPickels at BCH dot Org and we'll help get your squared away.

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Bryan, all you had to do was ask me before the race, could have saved some time! ;) I am similar body size/type to you and have been using my infinit mix for almost 10 years for 10+ halfs and 2 IMs. 300 cals per hour, for a HIM that's one bottle with 6 scoops in the BTA or for IM 2 bottles with 6 scoops (one bta one on frame). With concentrated infinit you need to take some water with every sip as well, so get aid stn handups for water. Just for variety, for the IMs i've added a payday cut in thirds, just for something different.

Infinit can have all the sodium you need, no additional tabs necessary

Never had a smoking IM run, so maybe this doesn't work for me LOL, but I suspect those issues are more pace related. Have had good results at HIM with this approach. May or may not be enough time to get Infinit going, but worth a look see.

Thanks for all of the great reply's. I will need to read through this entire thread a few times to get everything out of it. Much appreciated and looking forward to implement some changes. I have vowed this will be my last IM if things aren't better at WI. Hope it doesn't come to that.

6 water bottles sounds fine. Do these people realize where you were racing, the temperature, and distances? I wonder. For reference, I weigh around 200 lbs, my swim and bike were about the same as yours. I had a normal breakfast of a banana, some berries, coffee with double shot espresso.

At each bike SAG, I picked up and drank an average of 1.5 bottles of water/gatorade, ate 2-3 items (Gu, Chomps, banana). I got a couple of SKRATCH snow cones at mile 95 or wherever they had those. On the run, I drank ice water and gatorade at every stop, ate the full variety of offerings (pretzels, chips, oranges, etc...) used Base salt too.

Felt pretty strong across the finish.

You may try some 'normal' real food in your special needs such as a sandwich or candy bars. Have a decent breakfast!

This whole notion that you need a "nutrition plan" and need to calculate things like "burn rate" sounds like someone is trying to sell you something. I'll never be the type that intellectualizes my water and food intake during a workout. You should be doing some pretty big bricks to train for the race and figuring out how to hydrate and eat.

Was about to reply and saw this.

Nutrition issues are usually a symptom of poor pacing (or you could say insufficient fitness for the speed you are racing at).

Look at your training and pacing before you spend too much time studying your nutrition.

Did you do a "Big day" leading up to race day?

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Used Tailwind yesterday on a 2.5 hour ride and 30 minute run brick and it seemed to hold me over well yesterday. Going to use it on the next few weeks century rides as a stand alone nutrition and see if it still works. Someone had asked earlier if I had done any "big days" in training. Other than long runs and long ride days I would say no. I got away from doing long bricks and maybe that was a mistake. I think on one of my final long ride days I will incorporate an hour run to see how things work out.

Can you explain how I set a PR eating 2 slices of pizza at about mile 18 in the run @ IM Austria then........I can and it has NOTHING to do with "choosing products carefully" everybody is differrent.......every race is too.