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Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition
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If anyone is bored this morning and has some experience with nutrition and how to help out I would appreciate it. I have done 5 IM's and completed 3. I have always had major issues on the run with GI issues. Major nauseau and inability to get moving on the run. I just did Boulder on Sunday and thought I was going to have a great day. Lowered expectations due to a crash 6 weeks earlier resulting in a seperated shoulder, conclusion and cracked rib. But I was ready...I thought.

Got out there 8 days early and was able to ride the 44 mile loop a week before the event and the small loop 4 days before. Felt good and didn't think the elevation was getting to me. Fast forward to race. Felt good on the swim and exited at 1:17. Little slower than normal but took the pace easy and never felt like I pushed it. Hit the bike and felt "off" almost right away. When coasting my hips would cramp up on the leg that was up high. Never had this happen before. As the ride went on my quads would cramp when I would stand up to try and stretch. The ride didn't actually seem all that hard until the last 20 miles, but my body wasn't taking it well and I felt depleted and shot by the end of the ride. Finished in 6:07 and came into T2 in pretty rough shape.

I would guess I drank 2 ,20 ounce Gatorades and 6 bottles of water on course. In addition I had 3 kind bars, sports beans, probably 3 full bananas spaced out and some other odds and ends. Gut felt full and slightly uncomfortable the whole time. I never came out of the saddle to climb, only to stretch. Spun all the long hills in my 28 ring so I don't think I over exerted on bike. Spent 14 minutes in T2 trying to get stomache settled. After no improvement I started to walk. I made it 10 miles and finally called it a day. Heart rate was around 150 just walking and pulse was faint. I had tried almost everything they had to offer. Gatorade, water, coke. Even got a bottle of something pink from the Base salt guy( electrolyte) to try and get moving again. Gave the base salt a try also. Never felt better. Medics checked me out at 10 miles and suggested I go to the med tent due to pulse, heart rate and I was very cold to the touch. At that point I felt so crappy and couldn't forsee another 4 hours of walking for a 15 hour finish. Went to the tent for awhile and then went back to the house.

The nauseau is what I need help with. Woke up Monday morning and felt great. Legs are barely tired and feels like I could go out and run 20 miles right now. My thought is my body just can't handle all the sugars as this never happens on long training days. A lot of times I will stop and get pizza on century rides and it sits very well. Problem is the choices are basically all sugary type things at IM. So what have you? Any suggestions? I have IMMOO in less than 6 weeks and need to figure this out.
Last edited by: mndiver: Aug 4, 15 13:02
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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6 bottles of water? My freaken god, that's a lot. Did you take any salt tabs on the bike? That kind of h2o intake would flush a lot of salt/electrolyte out of your body. Perhaps you should look at your electrolyte intake way way way earlier than when you started your run.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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How often did you pee?
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [CamDukio] [ In reply to ]
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Twice. Once after leaving T1 and again around mile 70.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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It honestly sounds like you had no nutrition plan. A little of this and a lot of that (H2O) w/out any plan is a recipe for disaster. What's your sweat rate? Body weight? Carbs and sodium per hr intake? If you want to have a strong run you need to fuel, but do it correctly on the bike. I'd recommend seeing a nutritionist to get a solid race fueling plan established, then test it out on long training rides and runs.

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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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From your post it sounds like you have no nutritional plan at all. "Some of this, some of that, a little of this." That is not a good way to fuel a 9 to 15 hour day of exercise.

You need to figure out how many calories you need per hour, both on the bike and on the run. You then need to figure out how to get those calories in. Nutrition really is the fourth discipline when it comes to long course racing. Winging it is a recipe for a DNF, as it looks like you have figured out.


Personally, when I used to take in solids I would often have significant GI upset when it came time to run. Since mid 2012 I have raced using only liquids as my fuel source. I have a very dialed in concoction that goes in to four water bottles; two on my bike and two in special needs. It took a while to get it all figured out but since switching to liquids only I have had zero issues with GI upset and have had more than enough energy to finish strong.

Inifinit has some pretty comprehensive stuff on using liquid nutrition only. I would start there. I use their product but add some other super secret stuff in...... It works for me.


ETA--Nate, I swear I didn't see your post before I wrote mine :)

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
Last edited by: wannabefaster: Aug 4, 15 8:07
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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zoom wrote:
6 bottles of water? My freaken god, that's a lot. Did you take any salt tabs on the bike? That kind of h2o intake would flush a lot of salt/electrolyte out of your body. Perhaps you should look at your electrolyte intake way way way earlier than when you started your run.


Agreed. I usually think of nutrition in terms of electrolytes, calories, and hydration. I usually take in a bottle of liquid an hour, but not straight water. Usually a sports drink (gatorade, etc). So if you were to grade yourself on each component:


CALORIES

260 - 2 ,20 ounce Gatorades
0 - 6 bottles of water on course
600 - 3 kind bars
100 - sports beans
300 - 3 full bananas
? - some other odds and ends


1260 cals, ~210 / hr. A little on the low side (usually want 200-300). Grade: B




HYDRATION


Looks like you had that one covered. Possibly overdid it? Grade: B




ELECTROLYTES


Between the gatorades and sports beans you were probably covered for 3 hours at best. As already stated, the excess water may have flushed them. The bananas had potassium but not some of the others you need. I'd probably try and pick up something with a better electrolyte blend (huge fan of EFS) and sip it all the way through next time. Maybe salt tabs if you prefer to keep drinking water. Regardless, that left you with a 3 hour electrolyte deficit going into the run. I'm not sure how that plays into the symptoms you experienced, hopefully others can comment on that. But if the salt balance was way off that could be what you are experiencing. Grade: F


Keep in mind you need to keep up the electrolytes (and 100-200 cal / hr) on the run.


Lastly, what did you have for breakfast? I found I could go without a breakfast up to the 70.3 distance and survive. Going 140.6 you need a solid 1000+ calories somewhere between 2-6 hour prior to the race.




What was the longest training ride you did? I'd recommend trying to get at least one long one in between now and your next IM to try and tweak the nutrition to see how you respond. Do a 1-2 mile run off the bike and you'll know immediately if you nailed it or not. Incorporate a breakfast, use it as a race day simulation.


Good luck figuring it out. I had nutrition issues my first time at the OLY and 70.3 distances and it drove me nuts trying to figure it out.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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This is all great, keep it coming. To answer some questions.

For breakfast I had 3 pieces of gluten free toast with peanut butter on them and a banana. I figured that to be about 700 calories. 30 minutes before swim I had a Kind bar and sipped on a half bottle of watered down Gatorade.

My long ride was 100 miles 13 days before the race. Ran 13 miles 10 days before. Had a slightly shorter taper due to crashing 6 weeks before the race and having to not train for two weeks.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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margaritas ;)

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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Poor nutrition coupled with body beginning to under go changes associated with being at altitude.
Your breakfast choice was poor, h20 during IM racing is for cooling off or rinsing pee off leg. Keep carbs simple and easily digestible
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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Training log?

I didn't read anything in that rather compressed paragraph that indicates your problem had anything to do with nutrition.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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I think a lot of "nutrition problems" are actually poor pacing. Racing and training are usually very different. What's different: the race is really long (compared to any day of training), people generally do not sleep well (or not at all) the night prior to a race, people swim too hard in the race but don't realize it due to the adrenaline, the run is much hotter than training training runs AND training runs are usually not preceded by a long workout that left your core temperature high to start. The sum of all of that being that your expectations for race pace are too high. So you are going too fast, and GI problems result.

At the start of Ironman California (2001 - full) I was treading water next to a couple of guys, one whose heart monitor was beeping. He looks at it and says "hey, look, I'm OVER my target heart rate zone". The race hadn't even started; that is what I am talking about.

I too thought I had nutrition problems when I started. Like many others, I tried lots of different strategies. In the process of trying different nutrition, I realized nutrition was not the problem; it was pacing all along. The solution was simple: at least a few long bike rides in the heat of the day (to calibrate perceived effort in the heat), and during the race I ask myself "is this too fast?". If the answer is "yes, or maybe", the pace is too fast and I slow down. I tell myself "the race starts at 13.1 miles into the run, everything prior is just a long warm up".

I hope that helps....

2015 USAT Long Course National Champion (M50-54)
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [chris948] [ In reply to ]
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Training log is over on BT. I need to start keeping it over here. BT sucks now but I have always had training log over there. Basic breakdown is I average 12-14 hours a week and peaked at 16. Only 2 swims a week, 3 bikes and 3 runs. Pretty much followed Don Fink's Be Iron Fit plan Intermediate plan with the exception of one less swim.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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If your DNF was due strictly to Nutrition and not lack of endurance like 98.99% of people..(kidding on the percentage...well kinda)

I would give us detail on what you ate Pre-Race as well, what was the weather like that day?

AS for the bike: Drink Gatorade and use water as a in between if that makes sense. 3 kind bars, sports beans and 3 bananas...you certainly get points for diversity. Don't make it that complicated, cut out the bananas and the sports beans, use Infinte and feel free to eat those 3 bars, not sure the exact calories of them. Stop eating solids around 30 mins before the run.

Unfortunately when you are depleted either through lack of nutrition or burning too many matches it's almost impossible to try to recover during the race. Be true to yourself if you truly think your nutrition and nutrition alone is the problem then it's really easy to fix. But if it's lack of fitness then not so easy to fix in 6 weeks.

BTW how old are you?
Last edited by: Run For Money: Aug 4, 15 13:01
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [Run For Money] [ In reply to ]
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Run For Money wrote:
If your DNF was due strictly to Nutrition and not lack of endurance like 98.99% of people..(kidding on the percentage...well kinda)

I would give us detail on what you ate Pre-Race as well, what was the weather like that day?

AS for the bike: Drink Gatorade and use water as a in between if that makes sense. 3 kind bars, sports beans and 3 bananas...you certainly get points for diversity. Don't make it that complicated, cut out the bananas and the sports beans, use Infinte and feel free to eat those 3 bars, not sure the exact calories of them. Stop eating solids around 30 mins before the run.

Unfortunately when you are depleted either through lack of nutrition or burning too many matches it's almost impossible to try to recover during the race. Be true to yourself if you truly think your nutrition and nutrition alone is the problem then it's really easy to fix. But if it's lack of fitness then not so easy to fix in 6 weeks.

BTW how old are you?

I do agree that I do not have the fitness level I needed to perform how I wanted. It also didn't help going to race at elevation being from MN. I just didn't think I would get to the point where I couldn't keep anything down, heart rate had spiked, etc. I am 44 years old.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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Weight? Also what is the break down of the kind bars? From what I see they have lots of nuts and fiber, stay away from that on race day.

Basically you bonked, other things may have happened in conjunctio with this but I see less than 1000 usable calories on the bike for 6 hours.

Maurice
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
Weight? Also what is the break down of the kind bars? From what I see they have lots of nuts and fiber, stay away from that on race day.

Basically you bonked, other things may have happened in conjunctio with this but I see less than 1000 usable calories on the bike for 6 hours.

Maurice

I'm a bigger guy. 215 pounds at race time. Yes, I have plenty of fat but more solid than blubbery. Definitely don't process the heat very well. But I didn't really feel all that hot on the ride other than on the long climbs. Kind bar is mostly nuts. 200 calories. 13 g fat, 17 g carb, 7 G protein.

I'm starting to see that I really fucked this up.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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mndiver wrote:
I just didn't think I would get to the point where I couldn't keep anything down, heart rate had spiked, etc. I am 44 years old.


Try this sometime: Go run a 5K for a PR. When done correctly, you will likely be puking at the end. Especially if you do it in the heat of the day. Then try to drink a coke, or eat something. Even if you wait 30 minutes or an hour, eating/drinking will likely make you puke and/or give you diarrhea. Check you HR for a few hours; it will likely be elevated and even moderate exercise will cause a rise well beyond what you expect.

Point being: bad pacing presents itself with the same attributes most people attribute to bad nutrition (nausea, high heart rate). It is just way easier to accept (mentally) that it was nutrition than bad pacing. I'm not saying this to be critical. I've done it.

2015 USAT Long Course National Champion (M50-54)
Last edited by: Paul Dunn: Aug 4, 15 13:52
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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Well better to dramatically make one mistake and learn than have 4-6 muddling preformances over 4 years (me) basically we have 125 pound females at 325 cal/hour on the bike stricktly carbs in liwuid form. So for a 5:30 generally looking at over 1800 inputs for a good set up on the run...where you are generally limited to much less (225 or so)

Maurice
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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The density of kind bars with so much fat and protein would make for an increasingly difficult thing for your digestive system as you fatigued. I would suggest you look to eat bars early on the bike (if any) and use more pure carbohydrate sources along with plenty of electrolytes (your issues sound an awful like hyponatraemia to me).

Jack



"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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mndiver wrote:
Run For Money wrote:
If your DNF was due strictly to Nutrition and not lack of endurance like 98.99% of people..(kidding on the percentage...well kinda)

I would give us detail on what you ate Pre-Race as well, what was the weather like that day?

AS for the bike: Drink Gatorade and use water as a in between if that makes sense. 3 kind bars, sports beans and 3 bananas...you certainly get points for diversity. Don't make it that complicated, cut out the bananas and the sports beans, use Infinte and feel free to eat those 3 bars, not sure the exact calories of them. Stop eating solids around 30 mins before the run.

Unfortunately when you are depleted either through lack of nutrition or burning too many matches it's almost impossible to try to recover during the race. Be true to yourself if you truly think your nutrition and nutrition alone is the problem then it's really easy to fix. But if it's lack of fitness then not so easy to fix in 6 weeks.

BTW how old are you?

I do agree that I do not have the fitness level I needed to perform how I wanted. It also didn't help going to race at elevation being from MN. I just didn't think I would get to the point where I couldn't keep anything down, heart rate had spiked, etc. I am 44 years old.

At 215 pounds Ironman is a grind, try to drop some weight if you can. IMMOO bike is a hilly grind, pacing is KEY in an Ironman if you fuck it up and your body reacts it's usually too late to correct.

Search slowtwitch forums for IM nutrition plans plenty of good stuff here.

And just pace yourself on the bike this time since your not trying to KQ just easy it back especially on the first loop at IMOO.

Much better to finish an IM with a smile on your face then a DNF
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [Paul Dunn] [ In reply to ]
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Paul Dunn wrote:
mndiver wrote:
I just didn't think I would get to the point where I couldn't keep anything down, heart rate had spiked, etc. I am 44 years old.


Try this sometime: Go run a 5K for a PR. When done correctly, you will likely be puking at the end. Especially if you do it in the heat of the day. Then try to drink a coke, or eat something. Even if you wait 30 minutes or an hour, eating/drinking will likely make you puke and/or give you diarrhea. Check you HR for a few hours; it will likely be elevated and even moderate exercise will cause a rise well beyond what you expect.

Point being: bad pacing presents itself with the same attributes most people attribute to bad nutrition (nausea, high heart rate). It is just way easier to accept (mentally) that it was nutrition than bad pacing. I'm not saying this to be critical. I've done it.

Paul, I think you nailed it.

As I say, anyone can digest turkey dinner sitting down, but can they do it moving? Can they do it at 40% FTP? Maybe, maybe not. Having IM nutrition at 70% FTP is not easy. And if you are going over that, it is a death cycle of consuming your glycogen and not digesting your calories.

For the OP, it sounds like way too much water, not enough calories, not enough sodium and too high pace. I suspect like Paul Dunn said, you over swam given you were at altitude. You mentioned you did the intermediate IM program minus one swim per week. There is probably a reason there is an extra swim in there per week versus what you did....it is to raise your swim threshold so that on race day you can swim without "over cooking it" in the swim. Certainly at altitude this gets even worse when you get on the bike.

IM is like doing an all day training session just to get to the final 13 mile 'race' while consuming the equivalent of a turkey dinner. How slow do you need to do the first 127 miles to get to the 13 mile race with a full tank of calories? That's a tough balancing act. You want the highest possible fitness you can achieve on race day and on race day use a low enough percent of the high fitness to move forward while absorbing your nutrition. Guys with bigger top line fitness have more flexibility on making errors because their performance ceiling is much higher. Most of us have less wiggle room than FOP age groupers and pros.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
Well better to dramatically make one mistake and learn than have 4-6 muddling preformances over 4 years (me) basically we have 125 pound females at 325 cal/hour on the bike stricktly carbs in liwuid form. So for a 5:30 generally looking at over 1800 inputs for a good set up on the run...where you are generally limited to much less (225 or so)

Maurice

Did I read that right that you have 125 pound women who consume 1800 calories in liquid form? No solids? I could get on board with just liquids. I hate trying to cram down solids while racing. Always thought I needed to.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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There is nothing wrong with you. You have no nutrition plan. What you are describing would put me out too. You represent a huge number of participants who have not done their homework. I have personally enlisted the services of nutritionist and payed for it. There is a wealth of info on this website, search it and read it. Infinit, CarboPro, Osmo and Skratch, to name a few companies, have written extensively. It is usually that the public does not read and wants to be spoon fed.
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Re: Need advice from IM Boulder DNF- Nutrition [mndiver] [ In reply to ]
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The other question I would have is if you are celiac since you mentioned gluten free? If you have had any gluten in the prior days and maybe were not aware of it, that can really wreck havoc on your stomach's ability to digest. Some food intolerances can destroy or impair the lining cells of your stomach. It can take days for your system to recover from that, add in too few calories, too few electrolytes and maybe too hard of an effort and you've got the perfect time bomb to crash. Food will just sit in your stomach and go nowhere, fermenting, hence nausea, bloating, etc. Sometimes it is just better to do all of your own food prep in the days prior. One, so you know you'll get the calories in and not get food poisoning or something, and two, so you can avoid any foods you may be sensitive to. You may already do that, but this is just a thought. I'd also be curious on your general salt intake on a day to day basis as that can relate to how much you need on race day, especially taking in the amount of water you did.

Have you gone through race day nutrition during training, on a long training day? In addition, how well did you hydrate before the race when you came up to elevation? Did you include some electrolytes in there? Sounds like there could potentially have been some issues acclimating. Very important to stay hydrated.
Last edited by: madonebug: Aug 4, 15 18:46
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