I like the fact that WTC is implementing more safety procedures into their races and trying to educate athletes and prevent deaths.

My question is... Why is this not coming down from USAT our sanctioned governing body?

I will also say that I think making it a requirement that an athlete completes a HIM prior to entering an IM would be a great idea. Not only to increase the athletes awareness for such a challenging distance but also to generate more revenue thru higher HIM sales.

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Ready or not here I come!
Coaching NY's Southern Tier
Swift^3

Dan, you have way more pull. See if you can try to implement this, it makes sense, all joking aside.

This is BS straight from the cow's ass. Bike racing does it. Why? bc it's safe, bc it provides head to head racing that is exciting, it provides drama all day. Currently we can only be assured of that in the Mens race and maybe the womens. Sure at times some cat overtake another cat, I've never seen it be an issue. It's not the pell mell grab ass that goes on in triathlon now in the swim. Instead of having arbitrary waves based on ages and nothing else, now you can have waves based on similar times. Your waves aren't going to get spread out as much on the swim and it's going to provide head to head racing that matters.

Instead of age groups you would have it stratified based on ability.


If they were really serious about the safety of their swim and participants, and I'm not 100% convinced that they are, regardless of what you and they say, and if they went in with all options on the table, not trying to put like people together in a quantifiable way is a big mistake and to me makes this look like a PR move more than a safety move. If they truly wanted to change as little as possible, the biggest thing to change is the thing that kills the greatest % of their customers.

Self seeding is not quantifiable, Already IM asks you to self seed at their races. Year after year I watch races and watch rows 1,2,3& 4 intermix quickly in some sort of poorly organized chaotic fashion. That is self seeding and what needs to be fixed. That is what causes the panic attacks. Self seeding self seeding isn't a solution.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Just playing the trivia game:

Macca, Michelle, Welchie ?

Welchie being the guy you are referring to, who hung off a Kayak with a heart rate of something like 240 and waited till he felt better and then later in the day goes on to run a sub 2:50?

Dan

I agree with a lot of what WTC has done - and this comes from a 48 yo guy who can still swim :55 IM, guarded on the jersy shore for many many years, like you and monty knows a bit (def not as much) about water safety, and has 31 years tri racing experience - i do think i can say a couple things on this topic.

But to say that categorizing swimmers would loose the integrity of the race - I don;t buy that at all. Big swim races like Chesapeak Bay Bridge swim require qualifying standards - why is IM different??

And honestly if safety is the #1 priority (which I definitely believe it should be) having a swim standard/qualification and seeding people would go further than any of the other currently offered ideas to promote safety. Integrity in sports changes over time, maybe some of the things that lessened IMs integrity in the past regarding the swim are now different with all the deaths and changes in demographics of people participating in IM???

The other point - we have let people self police them selves in regards to preparedness to swim and seeding in mass swim starts. It does not seem to be working. Like other aspects of society, when people can't self regulate some times government needs to step in and 'help' the process along. I honestly believe no matter how much talking we do, what ever educational programs WTC undertakes - people will not take the swim seriously and adequately prepare. Hell people have been DIEING for a while and still we have this problem - so enforcing a consequence (qualifying standards, seeding requirements) - seem to be a logical and reasonable step towards "encouraging" people to LEARN TO SWIM, which they clearly are not doing now in the face of DEATH!!!

respectfully


r

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http://www.clevetriclub.com

rob reddy

Then vote for "gun time" in the poll to the right ------>

I like the category system, however as I alluded to already, you'd almost have to limit it to the swim, and group based on that. Yes, you're going to get wildly different abilities grouped together on the bike/run, but that is less of a concern than the swim. It's entirely possible that in the same category you'd have a :55 swimmer with a 2:10 swimmer based on disparities in their bike/run abilities.

So, either you'd have to base the categories on the swim alone, seed according to historical data, or give different weight to each segment (with a disproportionate emphasis on swim) for the overall category.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

"But to say that categorizing swimmers would loose the integrity of the race - I don't buy that at all. Big swim races like Chesapeak Bay Bridge swim require qualifying standards - why is IM different??"

coupla reasons come to mind:

1. because there's a history to this race, and i don't think ironman wants to mess too much with what folks see as the fabric of the experience;
2. me? i wouldn't hold up open water swimming or bicycle racing as models for that triathlon should do.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i forgot michellie. you can add mark allen.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

so its a history over safety issue???

history changes - embrace it - or there is no progress

r

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http://www.clevetriclub.com

rob reddy

In my opinion, the ONLY viable solution to the problem(s) that WTC is trying to address would be to have three staggered, mass starts, to include pros, then competitive AG, then "friendly" AG. This allows competitors to compete and allows for a more effective, natural seeding of talent - especially among those that are less experienced and in need of the additional peace of mind.

I would even propose that each start not only wear distinct color caps, but distinct color wristbands so that you have a chance to identify those with whom you're competing out on the course.

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"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell

The point Dan, and other make, is that mass starts may not reduce the instances where slow swimmers get up to the front. Obviously AG Waves mitigate this, and pure TTs will decrease the volume of passing required, or at least the clogging of the lane. Waves still suck in 90% of the events I have done, as the slower AGs go first (old men, women and no offense intended) and the younger fish will then overcome these waves.

In my opinion, if IM doesnt want to seed based on official swim times, they should at least offer pentalities (6-12month, or longer) bans for not making the swim cut-off per chip time. The ban could be overturned with proof of a competitive time - which would allow those who had a bad day to get back in, but would hopefully inspire the tortoises to rethink their seeding.

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Thoughts on being an Urban Triathlete

I am very interested to see how this will be handled as well. Having done IMLP the previous 4 years (1:15-1:18 range) and this year being number 5, one of my favorite aspects of the swim was being able to get in the water for a warm-up and just being able to hang there. A few minutes prior to the gun going off I could just position myself accordingly. I always found this time in the water as a good time to calm the pre-race nerves. As mentioned above, will it now be required to get out 20 minutes prior to the race and stand in line? If so, it seems to somewhat defeat the warm-up, at least to how I find it benefits me.

Neither #1 or #2 address any of the points or questions raised. You seem extremely closed minded to anything that might serve to maintain the integrity of the actual RACING aspect of the event while still serving to mitigate the risks in the swim that you and WTC seem to feel currently exist. History is not a very practical argument. You've claimed previously that athletes out on the course at the front of the race don't know where their competition is or don't make decisions based on that but I can assure you that the majority of the athletes racing for a podium know exactly who their competitors are, where they are on the course and base race decisions on that information. That is the essence of racing.

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Honestly - I'd say it depends on the width of the starting line.







Personally - I have no problem with this from a Gun time vs. mat time perspective, and I believe that is just dodging the question. When competitors have a staggered start time, you do not know if you have beat the other athletes or not until after the day is done. I can easily see this causing some false excitement celebrations, but for me personally it's just a matter of frustration of knowing that when I pass a family member and they say - "You were X at the turn around" Well was I X, or was I X-1 or X+1 depending on when exactly people started.


An athlete I coach last year finished IMNYC and believed she had KQ'd based on her place. A significant period of time later she discovered she actually missed it by one spot. Said athlete beat her by 7 minutes, and given a mass start they wouldn't have seen much of each other, but she would have at least know her standing when she finished and during the day when her family used the athlete tracker to update her on how she was doing.


I applaud WTC for making moves that they believe will enhance the safety of participants, but being a person that lakes to race - even if I am "racing my own race", I do like to know where I stand and what's going on and see how the race unfolds and occasionally take a risk and chase after someone - and some of the uncertainty surrounding the announced changes leave me frustrated.


Now if WTC were to make the start line at IMCDA wide enough that everyone could cross within 45 seconds to 3 or 4 minutes - I'm less frustrated than if it is a continous stream of starters from 6:35 until 7:00am - which until I hear otherwise is my assumption.

That's not viable at all. Just because someone might be a mediocre swimmer, we limit their ability to compete? And, if you have a loop course, how does lumping all the "friendly" AG'ers into one wave prevent them from being there when faster swimmers come through? Plus, you can still have a range of abilities in each wave, all you're doing by this proposal is making 3 smaller groups with the same problems.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

"so its a history over safety issue?"

false choice. plus, i'm not convinced categories would make anything safer.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

??? Maybe I'm missing something, but the swim start now does not take 30 minutes to get everybody in the water like their press release states it will at CdA and LP.


If it does take ~30 minutes to get everybody in the water, it doesn't change lap 2, but the slow people starting lap 1 last will be getting run over starting at the very beginning of the swim.

I must be missing something here.

Very good description. The rants about said changes are much ado about nothing IMO.
As a race director, my #1 worst nightmare is having to explain to a widow or child that their spouse didn't make it. That something I did or didn't do somehow contributed to their demise. Until the rest of you complainers take on that responsibilty, I'd STFU. If you don't want to use the gdamn mat, then don't. And if you're all that a piece of cheese, you'll be way out ahead of these BOP'ers anyway.

I've done Florida, was it bad? Nope, beach was plenty wide. I've Louisville. Was it bad? Nope, TT start. I've done CDA, was it bad. Hells yeah. It was the most horrible 1/4 mile I've ever swum and I've oft thought that it borderlined on gross negligence. I'd NEVER design a swim start like CDA. So, guess what? WTC fixed the ones that were broke. BFD.

Safety trumps ego.

Scott, this sucks for you. As a sub 52 minute IM swimmer you'll be crashing through the "pikers" on your 2nd loop and they won't even see you coming.

"Honestly - I'd say it depends on the width of the starting line."

i think you're probably right.

"I can easily see this causing some false excitement celebrations"

the person engaging in a false celebration is the person who started some time ahead of a competitor. reasonably, there are 2 places i can see lining up. i can either line up where i SHOULD line up. or i can line up well in front of that. i can line up on the front line even tho i really have no business lining up there.

the people who have the most to gain by keeping it at gun time are those who're lining up in front, instead of in their rightful place on the start line. they want to take advantage of the 2min, or 4min, "head start" they get over their competitors who lined up according to their proper seeds.

there will be 2 kinds of surprises at the finish line if we move to chip times: those you describe above, who'll have an unhappy surprise; and those who lined up according to their proper seed, who'll have a happy surprise.

it seems to me intuitive that those who are chafing hardest against chip times aren't asking for fairness; they're hoping to keep unfairness enshrined in the rules. i'm not saying you're that person, because you seem to me pretty reasonable. just, i would think if somebody lines up according to his proper seed, it seems to me more fair that they are awarded a time consistent with how they actually raced, rather than demoted in favor of some guy (or gal) who lined up in a spot he or she had no business inhabiting.

i can see it both ways, but on balance i think it's fairer, safer, and a better experience getting the benefits of a chip mat time, while accepting and acknowledging the downside of not knowing with absolute precision whether you've got a chip time a minute or 2 faster or slower than someone in your AG.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

How are you limiting one's ability to compete by separating them into two distinct groups? They either go competitive or they don't. If you're a mediocre swimmer that wants to compete, then wouldn't there be an advantage to starting 5' ahead of the other mediocre swimmers, with whom you would have to contend otherwise? You will also have the benefit of starting head-to-head, which is integral to competitive groupings. At IMLP '11, people had to make a conscious decision prior to the race if they were going to be competing for awards/KQ or they weren't (due to wetsuit eligiblity). How would the athlete's decision between a competitive wave and a friendly wave be any different? The failure in that case was that they classified athletes, but then forced them to start together, imparting a huge disadvantage to the competitive, mediocre swimmers.

Further, if the three starts are staggered by 5 minutes, then you have the slowest swimmers starting 10-12 minutes behind the fastest swimmers. Given the proposed rolling start, the fastest swimmers could - theoretically - be coming in for lap two before the corral is even emptied for the first loop. (At the very least, they will hit the BOP 100-200 yards into the second loop - far earlier than before.) Unless there's a plan for segregating the two loops, they will be spending the majority of their second loop swimming through the pack.

Forgive me if I'm missing your point, but I don't see a scenario where three staggered starts present the same degree of complication, much less greater complication (relative to a mass or rolling start).

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"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell

"You seem extremely closed minded"

you must have the patience of a coal miner trying to pry my extremely closed mind open ;-)

"History is not a very practical argument."

i'm just about double your age, travis. just a guess, but you may attach greater appreciation for history and tradition as you age.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Having no idea where you stand against your competition makes it feel more like a really long training day and less like a race.

Studies have proven that athletes can and do alter their physical performance and effort based on their perceived position, relative to their "competition."

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TEAM F3 Undurance

"As a race director, my #1 worst nightmare is having to explain to a widow or child that their spouse didn't make it. That something I did or didn't do somehow contributed to their demise."

apparently, this is not your concern, according to some slowtwitchers. it's all the responsibility of the entrant. until somebody dies. then all of a sudden responsibility DOES somehow flow to you, based on what you did or didn't do or plan in order to mitigate risk. probably according to those same slowtwitchers ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman