Friendly *and* funny.

What a beautiful and unique snowflake!

Dan,

I agree that this is a step towards ensuring everyone exits the water safely. However, my question is what do you think will happen on the second lap of CDA or LP? Basically the pro wave and top ag'ers will be completing the first lap of the swim before some people have even started. After doing CDA, LP and Louisville, I can see how it works well in Louisville since it is a point to point swim, but swims with multiple loops it seems like the second loop will be rather hectic with large difference in swim speeds. Also, do you know if there will there be separate timing mats?

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Fraser Bicycle | First Endurance

Check out my blog here | Twitter:@tmalis3

"Since you are at least somewhat in the loop on the conversations that go on regarding these issues is there ever a serious discussion of using a catagory system rather then age groups? Seems something like that could remove a lot of the disagreements about who starts where."

i was in on these discussions, because i think WTC realized i was somewhat far along in my own investigations based on the article series i wrote a couple of months ago. WTC went into it assuming it knew nothing, altho it knows more than just about any race organization. they started with a blank slate, through everything on the table, and just asked, "what can we do to make people A) safer; and B) feel safer, without changing the integrity of our races?"

i never got the sense that they were interested in categorizing racers, because i sense they think that WOULD change the integrity of their races. i think they wanted to change as little as possible about the race experience, and simply drill down to swim safety.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I looooove it when this "example" gets thrown out because it shows me how little the poster actually knows about that situation.

I think you are right about the warm-up. This will draw attention to the necessity of the warm-up to other races as well. Playing lawyer for a moment, it would seem that not allowing a swim warm up going forward is a slam dunk no-no from a liability stand point because the largest player in the game is mandating it.

I have never figured out of to say that without sounding like an ass. Self-congratulating over...

How do you, or they, feel that a catagory system would change the integrity of the race? Wouldn't it increase it since athletes of similar ability would be competing against each other rather than the huge gaps that exist in age groups?

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And if that doesn't work, I will simply look them in the eye and say "Get the fu!k out of my way before I light the fuse on your tampon, you are the sorriest excuse for a swimmer or my name isn't Scott Bowe."

win-win.

I don't know exactly what you are talking about but let me take a stab at this with some assumptions. If this person knows they have a history of panic attacks (in any situtation) then I would identify this as a huge weakness in my chance for a healthy livlihood and address it aggressively with tools and techniques to alleviate this weakness. I would not petition the race director to alter the swim start for me.

In the corporate world if you need to make a presentation and your anxiety limits you to the point where you tank the presentation then no one usually has a problem with getting you out of the way so that it doesn't happen again until you can gain the skills to succeed. Toastmasters 101.

"my question is what do you think will happen on the second lap of CDA or LP?"

i don't see the race as much different than it is now. let me ask it this way: let's say you take 30,000 people in hopkinton and you said, "everybody's time now starts with the gun." it isn't going to make that road any wider. so, what would change? would the change be good or bad? do you think that would cause the race to be run materially differently?

the ONLY difference between a mass start the way it's run now, a seeded mass start the way it's contemplated in florida, and a seeded mass start the way it's contemplated in CDA, is:

1. there will be more obvious attention - attention, not a requirement - placed on the notion of lining up according to your swim ability;
2. your time starts when you cross the mat, rather than with the gun.

i don't see how this changes anything materially on lap-2, that is, if you were going to get swum over this year on lap-2, you were going to get swum over last year on lap-2.

as to the mats, different mats, i have no 411 on that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

by the way, it is also WTC's responsibility to mitigate your heart attack. or to do its reasonable best, knowing that you may well die anyway. it is also its responsibility to mitigate your drowning. or your heart attack on land. or your bike crash. or your heat exhaustion. or your anaphylactic attack. or your diabetic coma. or your epileptic seizure. to the degree reasonable. to a degree reasonably necessary and possible. not because you were ill-equipped, but because sometimes bad things happened to well-intentioned, well-prepared athletes. this is why every race has a medical plan. it's why fewer people died at the boston marathon than otherwise might have.
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Then why aren't you beating the drum of other very reasonable measures such as limiting the field size? Proving your swim worthiness? Providing a physician's clearence? Sounds reasonable to me?
Please promise me you will dig up this thread and address your arguments when the field size increases at Ironman races

"If this person knows they have a history of panic attacks"

can we stop there? is this the norm? when i read about this on our forum, or i talk to folks that this has happened to, i don't get the sense that they are prone to panic attacks. yes, sometimes. but, not the norm. is it your sense that this person you describe represents the norm? because, if i start a discussion with, "if this person has a history of heart attacks," i think we've got a problem right with the original stipulations. i'd like to make sure we're on sound footing with our assumptions.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

As somebody who is doing Louisville, I'm an enormous proponent of chip time. It may be half an hour before I hit the water, and I'd like that not to count against me. I'm not overly concerned with making the 17 hour cut-off, but I'd rather not be penalized for standing in a Six Flags Roller Coaster line waiting to punish myself for 140.6 miles. Plus, the technology is obviously already there, so it's not like using chip time is a massive revolution or anything.

I understand why some people are against these changes, but as long as WTC has their ducks in a row covering for the logistical changes then I'm all for it. I stayed to the back of my IM mass start in Cozumel anyway, no need to get up in the washing machine if you can avoid it.

Sincerely,
BOMOPer who will probably take 14+ hours but will race anyway because it's my goddamn money & my goddamn race

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Iron Distance Race Selector

Great post Dan and I'm not surprised at the complete over reaction from our resident elitist here. The swim warm-up is being ignored and is, in my opinion, a WELCOME change. I've raced AZ, FL, KY, and NYC and none of these races would be significantly affected by the change. I am looking forward to a floating start again in TX next week but if they changed it to the new format..who cares? It affects my race not one bit.

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Thanks, In terms of lap 2 congestion, I didn't think about it that way. In CDA 2011, the pros started 30 min prior to the main pack, so they were already on the their second lap before the mass start.

With that said, you are right. The fast swimmers pass the slow ones on the second loop anyway, it just will be matter of a different point on the course.

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Fraser Bicycle | First Endurance

Check out my blog here | Twitter:@tmalis3

"Then why aren't you beating the drum of other very reasonable measures such as limiting the field size? Proving your swim worthiness? Providing a physician's clearence? Sounds reasonable to me?"

when i started racing triathlons it was in 1978 and there were no bike racks, and none of us had any notion of what the order of events should be. from that day until this i've been pretty libertarian in my views about sport in general and triathlon in particular. so, i don't cotton to the idea of everyone providing a physician's clearance and i don't think you'd like that either, altho i think that is the mandate in some countries.

what i do think is that a race should be ready for medical crises. you can go farther. you can mandate a defibrillator on every one of these rescue rafts, or comfort rafts, or whatever you want to call them. but i don't think that's reasonable. i do thinking have one defibrillator, or even a couple, is reasonable. i think having trained medical personnel, with rescue equipment and medication, is reasonable. my ex had an asthma attack at CDA, back before ironman, in the water, because of an allergy. now, she was pretty well trained. 9:08 in canada, 9:21 in kona. i'd say she was equipped and prepared. nevertheless, things happen, so, is having rescue medications and trained personnel at the race site reasonable? i think if a race organization of its own accord chooses to increase its preparedness in the face of 3 or 4 deaths in the water in the span of one year, i don't see why we should castigate that organization for doing so, as long as it does not materially change the experience at the race for the worse.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Why not just have 2 lanes on the double loop swim? Outside lane for the 1st lap and inside lane for the 2nd lap, that way no one is run over.

IMHO, this "rolling mass start" doesn't make any f'ing sense. Either assign people a starting spot based on previous (swim) times or don't.

I'm a two time IM Louisville finisher. At Louisville the first time, I was nervous about making the swim cutoff. So nervous, I even bought one of the $300 B70 PZ3TX swim skins. As it turns out, I did the swim in 1:22, so I really didn't need to be concerned. Having said that, I can *almost* guarantee that people who are concerned about making the swim cutoff are going to work the system to gain the extra time. And that will include lining up waaaayyyy too far to the front.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

"Why not just have 2 lanes on the double loop swim? Outside lane for the 1st lap and inside lane for the 2nd lap, that way no one is run over."

that's kind of how i felt about it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I was thinking the same for multi loop swims.

"I can *almost* guarantee that people who are concerned about making the swim cutoff are going to work the system to gain the extra time. And that will include lining up waaaayyyy too far to the front."

look, we already have a rolling start, in the way you seem to be thinking of it. some of you assume that the mechanics of how and when people are going to enter the water are going to change. that's not what rolling start means. it means the start of the CLOCK rolls, rather than there being one clock start for everyone.

there is going to be ZERO difference in what the swim start itself looks like. except, there will be less of a motive for those fools to rush to the front in order to hit the cut off time, because under the new system they get more time!

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think whether people actually succeed in pulling out anything special when they see a competitor coming misses the point -- it is the experience of knowing where you are in the race, and competing. For evidence that this matters to people, read the race reports of competitive athletes. Almost always they talk about where the others in their age group are in the race "I saw a guy in my age group at the turnaround coming on strong". "At that point I was in 3rd place, and was hoping to stay away from...". Whether they succeed or not, what is memorable to them is the experience of competing.

All I'm saying is that It does change the nature of a race to remove that competitive aspect. It's the difference between a horse race run one-at-a-time for a time, and all together for a win.

Generally, I'm all for making the swim safer -- but in a way that won't diminish the competitive aspects of the sport.

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blog: transitionfour.com
twitter: @tritweeter

And this is where are opinions largely differ. In my mind this change (for better or worse) makes this an "event" and not a true race. I want to be a part of a race where the clock starts on all of us. Of course I don't want people to die either, but I fully acknowledge the risks I'm taking when I get into water with others. It is inherently dangerous. The RD can make any change he/she wants to make it safer, but as soon as the very element I cherish (the fact that everyone in front of me is beating me and everyone behind me I am beating) is gone, I don't see it as the product I was originally interested in.

Being relatively new to the sport, I can easily see how an inexperience swimmer who was worried about making the swim cut off time would want the now full 2:50 to do the swim to alleviate the worry/panic of not making the cutoff . In doing so they are probably not thinking about the faster swimmers going over/around them. Not saying that's right but probably the case. When I was looking to do IM Louisville and new to the sport, my thinking was get to as close to the front of the line to give myself some extra time for "just in case" not considering getting swam over by faster swimmers.


Having a little more experience now and knowing what a mass start or even wave start feels like I seed myself to the back and outside (as I am not a fish) to avoid being in the way. I would venture most new people to the sport are not thinking about getting swam over and just line up let alone try and get to the front for the most amount of time. So, yes the extra time is good and I am all for it and the wave self seeding. I think along with the new starts and the education program, there needs to be specific education on the appropriate and safe way to start.

Speaking only in relation to Lake Placid (where I have experience), I think that the second lap issue will be more pronounced in this start configuration. Previously, the pros went off ahead of time, and always caught the field at some point on their second lap. I believe they had a 10 minute advantage, plus the 2-3 minutes it takes for the slowest swimmers to cross the line (so let's call it a 13 minute advantage).

Given the new configuration, they will have their initial starting delta, plus upward of 20-30 minutes that it takes to get the last swimmers into the water. IOW, the fastest swimmers will be hitting the slower swimmers far earlier (possibly before the corral is emptied?), thus providing a greater disadvantage to both the slowest and fastest swimmers.

IMHO, I'm on board with the idea of a pro mass start, then a competitive mass start, then a "friendly" mass start - each staggered by 3-5 minutes. While I'm dissatisfied with this new method, I'm not going to bash the brand for it, and I'm certainly not going to avoid their events for this reason alone. It's their show, and if this helps them organize and execute better then they're doing what they're tasked with.

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"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell

"All I'm saying is that It does change the nature of a race to remove that competitive aspect. It's the difference between a horse race run one-at-a-time for a time, and all together for a win."

okay, so, you're vying for a podium spot and a kona slot in CDA or placid. what do you think will be the total elapsed time difference in chip start time between the first guy vying for that slot in your AG, and the final guy? 30sec? 45sec? 2min? i mean, really, no fooling, honest injun.

now, let's fast forward to halfway thru the run. do you know who and where these people are in the race against whom you're competing? and, to the degree you do know, is there some material change between how you'll race? or the general sense of where you are versus where your competition is, for that podium spot, and for that kona slot?

or do you really feel you're out there all alone, with no idea what's going on, in a race contested by 2500 solipsists? this is the material change in your race experience between an ironman where your time commences with the gun instead of the mat crossing?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman