as is typical, many of you guys are taking yourselves and the thread sideways rather than paying any attention to the point of the thread. when i contemplate who has probably spent more time in the saddle alongside BOTH world class or national class cyclists AND the world and national class triathletes, PT (the OP of this thread) immediately comes to mind.

rather than asking him questions that might be salient (okay, PT, how much stronger is LS than TJ Tollakson, Maik Twelsiek, et al, and in what kinds of terrain, and over what distances?) you'd rather debate whether TD is the 4th, or 13th, or 41st best climber in the world.

i believe last year PT spent fairly significant time in the saddle alongside the reigning ironman world champ, who is himself a monster on the bike. so i think an interesting question might be how PT thinks LS ranks, as a raw engine while on the bike, compared to SK. but that's just me.

carry on...

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

LOL. Are you attempting to herd cats with this post?

fool's errand, i know.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

True, I'm more interested in cycling than triathlon. Apologies for the derailment. I simply find absurd claims about cycling to be...intriguing.

Good re-organization Dan. Much appreciated.

A few things for us to still learn about.

How much harder is the lower oxygen on your body past mile 14 (where many of the bike pros turn around). I know that having riden to the top, the last few miles I feel pretty light headed and the final few miles are the steepest.

I know that the football player that can run the fastest 40 yards, isn't alwasy the best football player, and the basketball player that has the best vertical doesn't always become the MVP in the NBA. So just because Lionel has some big power-numbers on the bike right now (without wind-tunnel testing, without any offiicial bike coaching) doesn't mean he will be the best Ironman Biker (or even a "C" pro cyclist). But he is hungry, loves pain, wants to learn and I am sure will keep getting better. Lionel personally admires Seb K. the current Kona Ironman Champion for his incredible racing style of laying it all on the line all day long. We hope to be able to emulate that kind of gutsy racing this year and in the future. I think the more GO FOR THE HOME RUN FENCE guys in long distance racing there are, the more exciting and unpredictable the bigget Ironman and 70.3 races will become.

Paul Thomas and a number of others will have had the chance to ride with both top Ironman competitors and pro bikers and I am sure will see and know the numerous, sublte differences between the two groups (and within the 2 groups). Paul was injured on the few days he saw Lionel so far in Tucson, but he would immediately know that he's green on the bike skills, a bit noisy when it comes to moving his body around the bike, and likely not setup optimally on the bike. All things we intend to address over the coming months (and in some case years when it comes to becomign a better biker). Knowing how many years its taken the top Ironman atheltes to become great (or very good) bikers (both in terms of fitness and skill), Lionel is realistic about how much he still has to learn and improve upon.

I am personally curious however to hear from the limited number of people who have had the luxury of riding with top Ironman Triatheltes (either now or in the past) and also with some pro cyclists to hear who are some of their all-time favourite riders. How does Seb K. rank up against Mike Pigg or Jurgen Zack or Norman S. Where does Peter Reid fit into the picture from the past . I am excited to know how does young, green (still a lot to learn) Lionel Sanders fit into the discussion of all of those great athletes in terms of the bike. Lionel spoke to Dave Scott last year when Dave came to Tucson and Lionel figured that Dave's power numbers had to have been huge, to have riden as fast as he did in the 80s, on lessor bikes, with clothing that was non-aero, non-aero helmet, etc. One can guestimate, what kind of actual power was required to move that less effecient bike to those fast times, in the Kona winds 25 years ago. AND then still run 2hrs 40 minute marathons off the bike. Some truly amazing athletes from the past, have likely not gotten all the appreciation they deseve for the performances of the past.

Thanks Dan for keeping us on track. I am keen to hear from anyone who has had past personal riding experience with some of the current or past triathlon pros.


PS: I am in Abu Dhabi for today's (its Sat here), ITU SPRINT Triathlon. We are missing Allistair Brownlee who twisted an ankle a few days ago, but otherwise most of the top names are here. I was not obviously in Tucson yesterday for Lionel's final ride up Mt Lemmon, but the 70km/hr winds made it too dangerous to go past mile 5. I understand he was riding about 440 watts until he wisely turned around. The importance of weather is not ignored on any mountain and that was one of the things that made last Sunday's ride so special. With all kinds of daily condition changes, we needed to get lucky (and we did).

Get out on (or IN ON) your bike sometime this weekend. Spring hopefully is not too far away from many of you.

Hey Barrie:

I'm curious once Kona is won (we hope!) & as a fan of sport we & Lionel watch Rio come & go & then Canada really takes advantage of our new world class velodrome from 2015 onward......what Lionel can do on the track!!!

That said, believe it or not; there's more $$$ in triathlon-:)

All that aside as you know I started this nonsense in late 90s. I remember a long run with Lisa Bentley talking about Cam Brown & IMNZ. Today Cam won #11! She & he seriously top class IM athletes and runners. How far the sport has evolved now! Lionel can emulate athletes like those two he will do just fine!

And as far as cyclists....Axel schooled me at his Gran Fondo. Years after retirement it is crystal clear apparent the level of Europe cycling. Yes I'm a hack but it was still impressive to see. Also had two of his team engines there as world class under 23 riders & their level was miles ahead. It's different sport. Can't compare tri riders vs pure cyclists. When the under 23s went up the road I was taken back not by the power, or ease, but by the fluidity of the pedal stroke and minimal body movement. They just went bye. I'm dying at 400 watts along the flats & they barely flinched riding away. Total class. Duechene was <23 canadian champ on his team 2013.

---

@rhyspencer

"How does Seb K. rank up against Mike Pigg or Jurgen Zack or Norman S. Where does Peter Reid fit into the picture from the past"

of all the uberbikers in triathlon, i think the guy who might've had the loudest pure power numbers was spencer smith. he was a big guy, and rode up palomar in something like 56 or 57 minutes. PT was there on that day (as was i). and he did it with a lot of ease. because he was a pretty big guy, there must've been a lot of power in that engine.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I had a couple of Cokes with Spencer Smith once, after an oly dist race at St. Augustine, Fla, back in Oct 1994. He of course won the race by like 6 minutes and i came in about 22 min behind him. The race organizers had no Coke or Mtn Dew in the post race re-fueling area, and Spencer just happened to be asking the RD about where he could get a Coke right after i finished. It just happened that i had been to that race before, and knew that there was a bar right around the corner where we could get some cold Coke, so i spoke up and took him over there, and i got to talk to him one on one for 30 min or so. One of my most cool race experiences:)

As triathletes go, he was among the most muscular/powerful ever to race at the highest level; IIRC, he was about 5'10" and about 170-ish.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

f all the uberbikers in triathlon, i think the guy who might've had the loudest pure power numbers was spencer smith. he was a big guy, and rode up palomar in something like 56 or 57 minutes. PT was there on that day (as was i). and he did it with a lot of ease. because he was a pretty big guy, there must've been a lot of power in that engine. //

I was the timer that day when they Jurgen and Spencer raced for the $1k winner take all training challenge, and i recalled Spencer doing a high 58, while Jurgen was a minute behind. So i dug into your own archives, where you wrote the story, and it appears i have just a few more memory brain cells left than you do. I agree though, I don't ever recall hearing about any pro breaking so many bikes. He could just put so much torque to the cranks without shifting, that the poor bikes never stood a chance.


http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/features/palomar.html

and who brought up TD?

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Didn't Spencer Smith try to become a pro road racer?

And if TD was on road bike versus TT for LS, it's even more than that.

Wiggo put 2 minutes into TD on Mt. Diablo last year and Dennis :20 more. Maybe TD had a tummy ache because those "TT guys" went pretty well against a pure climber.

Discussing whether LS is close to the best cyclists in the world (doped or not) is akin to wondering how close Ali Brownlee would be racing Bekele head to head in a 10km, or whether Andy Potts can swim with Sun Yang. It's not even close, so I'm not sure what this discussion is all about and why we're always wondering if a top triathlete, training for triathlon, can compete against top single sport athletes. Would anyone see Ashton Eaton anywhere near El Gerrouj in a 1500m?

Brownlee would be a lot closer really. At least to Bekele now.

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Agreed, not sure what compelled me to participate in this conversation.

He did for a couple years. He also was accused of doping in triathlon, from a positive drug test, however, he was able to beat the charges.

Where they stack up:

While I did not get a chance to do a hard session with Sanders, I still am very aware of his degree of badassness on the bike via his Lemmon climb by using his time and w/kg. As we know there are so many different specialties within cycling, even the listed triathletes below have varying strengths depending upon what kind of effort is boing served up. Based upon going straight uphill on a TT bike, I can't think of many multi-sporters (yes, including duathletes and Kenny Souza) that would be able to match Sanders' jaunt up Lemmon. I have only one question about his performance......how motivated was Lionel on this day. That element is the unknown. Can he do this on any given day or was this a tapered and laser vision focused effort. For instance, in April of 1987, I ran 8:53 for 3200m. All of the stars were lined up and my goal was clear....just to beat Marc Davis. I ran 2:01 for the last 800m......lots left in the tank. 2 weeks later, I ran 9:03 exhausted beyond belief.....If Sanders can do this week in and week out, I don't know of a triathlete in my time in multisport who could do the same. Using Tom Danielson as an example again, he really can climb straight up a mountain in training better than almost everyone in the world (ssshhh Jack Mott!) but can not do it in a race. Can Sanders produce in Kona or is he a TD on Lemmon? Based upon his Florida and 70.3 4th, it appears that his TT up the hill was not a fluke.

Until I ride with the guy (which I will hope to on his next block down here) I don't have real life experience with him. Not because I am afraid of the mtn, but because I want triathlon relevant conditions, I will take him on the same 101mi loop I took Sebastian and Twelsiek last year. It is a very similar course as Kona.....As a matter of fact, there is a segment that nearly mimics going up Hawi. in 2014, the 3 of us did this loop 2 weeks in a row, where we rotated equally until someone splintered. The first week, I ended up with 298w at the end of 4hr ride. The next week was 309w. All of us stayed together the entire ride, except for the 2x we rode up the HAWIesque hill.

Again, I have yet to ride a real ride with Sanders and can't compare. However, I find this is a good opportunity to use my 2 decades of slug festing with the our top IM guys.......Descending order:

All time bone crushers
1. Kienle 2014
2. Stadler 2000
3. Twelsiek 2013/14
4. Zack 2000
5/6. Hoff/Tollakson
7. Spencer Smith 2002
8. Kenny Souza 2005 -past his prime.
9. Macca 2003
10. Monty and Dan

Where will Sanders slot in for the taste test?

I was never a seasoned cyclist until I hit age 40. I never rode with a PM until this time also. My guess is that either Stadler or Kinele has had the best horse power over a hard 4-5hr ride. I missed Spencer during his hay day this may also apply to Zack Attack. Times are irrelevant on Kona's course, or any other due to weather conditions from day to day. If Sanders is not a Tommy D, (while honing in on his swim), I think that Kienle and Frodo will have someone else to worry about to take the top spot.


The only thing that worries me is that Lionel seems to be fixated on records. At the end of the day, a record up Lemmon or over 112mi is meaningless compared to winning the race. Time will tell.

PT

If the top tri guys were super great at just one thing, then they'd be on their national oly team in that one thing, be that the S, B, R, rowing, tennis, or some other sport. Triathletes generally become TRI athletes because they are really good at several diff sports, but not quite super great at any one of the three. This is more or less by definition, in essence:)

Relative to the discussion of AB's 28:32 for 10K on the track, vs the WR of 26:17, he is about 8.6% slower than the WR. Generally, it appears that the very top tri guys are 8-10% slower than their single sport counterparts, when comparing a stand-alone effort to the WR. On the swim, I've read that Gomez and the Brownlee's have gone 15:30 for 1500 scm in masters' swim meets, which is about 9.4% slower than Grant Hackett's WR for 1500 scm, so right in the 8-10% range. The bike is a bit more problematic to compare.

Perhaps Mr. Mott can hazard a similar estimate for the bike:)

---

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Sanders: FTP tops 5.5-5.6 w/kg, Chris Froome and fellow aliens: FTP 6.5 w/kg. That's 14-16% less.

I would think that long course athletes won't have peak w/kg numbers for triathletes because they tend to weigh a bit more than short coursers. But even in absolute power someone like Sanders is giving up 60-70 watts to someone like Cancellara in FTP, similar discrepancy as w/kg.

---

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

OK, so maybe the % slower/less powerful should be 9-15%. Interesting to try to quantify these things:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Well, Bekele's marathon PR (from last April) is only 11 seconds per mile slower than Brownlee's 10K track PR. So, Bekele would probably only lap Brownlee once now.

Yup. Real deal. Improved swim, still getting faster on the bike. What a beast

Nice article today on Lionel in the USA Today. If you have a chance check it out.

can anyone send a link to this if possible.