Some thoughts to cheer you up.
1) If 1 in 7 AGers are doping- that means you are already beating at least half of those cheating losers.
2) In addition to cheaters- there are also people who are more talented than you and people who don't have the same work/family commitment as you. They have an unfair advantage. There is nothing you can do about that either. BUT it will feel that much better when you excel and qualify anyway.

Well 10th out of 400 in my group or so......Beating more than that. Im more concerned about the other 8 or 9. Maybe they were all natural and well trained but this recent study says that is doubtful. If I race Texas I will qualify barring and major issues but still sucks to hear of this cheating and a grand scale.....

A thought struck me as I came back to this thread.

I think they are doing the testing all wrong.

What they should really do is test an entire age group. Randomly select an age group and test everyone in it. Right now they randomly select a few across the entire range. It's a bit hit or miss. If 1 in 7 are doping (and I think more) then lets stop playing Russian roulette and test an entire group at one time. If it's really one in seven then in an age group with 200 people in it, they will (and they will) catch thirty or more.

If your chances are pretty remote within an age group of being the one person selected, there's less incentive to stop. But if you know that when an age group is selected, everyone is going to be tested, there's no place to hide. I'm guessing a few perennial winners will retire.

Men or woman is fine, although I tend to think of woman as more honest, that is probably just chauvinism on my part.

Ken66- this is just my experience.
But... I have raced Kona 3 times, Olympic distance worlds, and I swam division I in college.
The majority of people that I know who consistently beat me - are usually more talented, train harder- or both. They don't need to cheat.

The two places where I have observed cheating:
1) Low level power sports- ie. highschool football and body builders at the local gym. (Honestly - I consider these athletes way below me. I don't care what they do).
2) Top level world championship level athletes. (These people are way better than me- with or without drugs. And they have economic incentives.)

Cheating is a sign of disrespect- both for yourself and for the sport. Economic incentives might cause one to cross that line.
But if you don't respect yourself, or the sport- are you really going to want to "train your ass off."

1 out of 7:
How many of those are BOP athletes who took drugs for non-performance issues?
How many are undisciplined MOP athletes who think they want to win but can't be bothered doing the training- they take PEDs but don't realize any benefit?
How many are are FOP athletes who came down with a health issue and never got around to getting a TUE- as they weren't training for anything in particular- and weren't using the PED as part of any plan?

Now how many are organized, deliberate cheaters?

The number of "organized deliberate" cheaters will be pretty small in the amateur ranks.

I love your idea. Problem though is the cost. I read somewhere that it costs like $500 per test! I think they need to focus on the "fast guys and gals" I feel anyone who qualifies or is real close to qualifying needs to be on the list for mandatory testing. Also, anyone who has qualified in the past, or anyone who, through data research, has been in the top 1-2% in their AG should be randomly tested at ANY time of the season so that the can not "time" their illigal activties.

Statistically, your chance of getting caught are the same if they test an entire age group or continue with random testing.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

There are liars, dammed liars and statistics.

Except for you, I think the none statisticians would be scared witless if they did it.

please provide the link for the article you say states 1 in 7....

There was a thread a little while back where lots of articles were cited.
The "1 in 7"quote was reasoned speculation by one of the people who conducted the study (i think)

Agree with the above - Assuming that doping is equally common across age groups and genders, which I realise it likely isn't, roughly the same percentage of tests will come back positive no matter how you go about it.
The benefit of testing all of an age group would be that you would totally clean up that single age group. For a year.
The downside is that you grant a guarantee to everybody who's not in that age group that they won't be tested that year.

They could probably weight testing towards age groups that have been found to dope more (my guess is that men 30yrs and up are the worst offenders due to male ego and disposable income), but I'm in favour of mostly just testing at random.

I agree with you...Kona amateurs would have some fairly high PED use. On the way out on the bike leg...(I swam 59min so I had plenty of opportunity to observe this.. :)) I as blown away by some incredible speed on the bike. Would love to think that is all hard work and human potential...but when you are doing 280watts in a aero position on a p5 and getting passed as though you are standing still....a little birdie makes you wonder.

It's both hard and not hard to imagine amateur athletes doping when there is no money at stake. I think for all of us who aspire to the fast end of IM performances...the lure of speed motivates us to do so much already...for some...the drug route is just another aspect of their "all out" mentality.

More testing and more importantly MORE PUBLICATION of the testing and results (cheaper deterrent!) would be very helpful towards a fairer playing field.

As for your dreams in Kona Ken66....forget about what others are doing...you can do it clean and it is worth it. Kill it!

scca_ita wrote:

please provide the link for the article you say states 1 in 7....

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/...doping-epo-steroids/

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/...lon-doping-study.pdf

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

It wasn't speculation. It was a questionnaire filled out by the athletes. See my links.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

First time I ever read that study. Didn't know that it was a survey or just taken from a sample of athletes racing in Germany from 3 races.

Do people actually ever read these studies when they make claims that 1 in 7 athletes use PED's? It also seems that cognitive doping is more prevalent than physical doping....

"The prevalence of cognitive doping was higher than the prevalence of physical doping. At first sight, this seems to be paradoxical. The use of cognitive doping in athletes, however, is not forbidden and not associated with sanctions."


Would be better if they tested from a much broader demographic then pull their data from 3 German races.

unless you were doing 27+mph on that 280w(assuming not a tailwind or downhill), I'd think that birdie might be looking for a port-o-let

The study was conducted by Germans.

I think the numbers would actually be worse if it was conducted in the States. The Low-T bullshit isn't as prevalent in Europe as it is here.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

While I doubt that anyone would ever do this, I think it would be easy to put in place a random testing of a complete age group. Simply have the entire age group pee in a cup at registration. You want to register, you have to pee.

Heck considering nearly everyone is sipping from a bottle as they wait in line, filling a cup would be the least of their problems (stopping might be another). Two tents, one table, a little magic marker and a few rubber gloves. Would love to see the affect that would have.

Of course there would be those who would claim some infringement on their rights, but I suspect you could cover that in the original registration process. Tick a box, pee in a cup. Heck, you wouldn't even have to test all of the samples, as long as everyone pee'd, that would be enough to dissuade most. I would bet an awfull lot of competitors would get "sick", suddenly too ill to compete, today.

Oh well, like so many things in life, it's just another wet dream (sorry for the pun).

Have the top 10 all pee in the same cup. If a positive hit then they are all marked for an out of comp test or all get blood draw later if there is a test for whatever they find. Cuts down on costs and leads to some more information and would deter the doper and other possible dopers in the group.

Now wouldn't that be a gas.

You're right, you would combine a group, if that group comes up positive, test the group individually.
I suspect if you did the math, you could make it work, both in cost and deterrence.
But not just the top ten overall, but in selected age groups.

Sign me up!

I see someone has beat me to it and provided the story...thanks. Yas it was a survey so..this is people who admit it. How many athletes doing it but not admitting it? Makes you wonder. I like the idea of every singe athlete pissing in a cup. Does not mean they will be tested but they"may be chosen to be tested" Should cut down on the cheaters. There will still be the sophisticated cheater who knows when to "get off the juice" just before a big race though. I don't know how these people race and accept their results. Any cheaters reading this let me tell you how I and others feel about you as I know some of you are reading this........You suck. You cant do it on your own .....this is why you cheat......genetically you lack the ability and that's why you do what you do. Sure you can tell people of your grand accomplishments but deep down in your psyche you know what you really are......If I choose to race 2016 I will show up at the venue. I will look around not knowing who you are or which of you are juicing but rest assured I will try to beat your ass naturally.
Sure I know.....you were feeling weak one day so you went to your doctor and he drew some blood......told you your T level was low. Guess what? Its called aging. That's what happens to your body as you age. Im just about 50 now. I would like to have the same amount of T floating around in my system as when I was 25 but Im not 25 anymore. I have the T level of a 50 year old. Id like to race against other guys my age who are in the same boat man. I don't mind getting my ass kicked by a clean athlete. I respect them for their god given ability and their hard work ethic, but I have absolutely no respect for the clown who uses ........even if a Dr provided you a reason for feeling " your age"

Heres an idea. Test each age group podium group as a pool (a communal piss bucket) and test it after the race. Give people the option to walk away if they don't want to be included...but they get no award/recognition. If the pooled sample comes up positive, then that age group was a fun run that year (i.e. no awards that year for that age group). Let them all know, and things will naturally sort themselves out. If there is no benefit to racing all doped up then it should stop. Sometimes the most effective answer is not the easiest one...Remember that we are just playing our favorite game here; this is not life and death.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

though I like (love actually) your idea. many times people don't show for awards. As an example: Wildflower long course had 1 person in my AG show up for awards (out of 5). To be fair, they wait a really long time before doing awards, and, most folks want to hit the road - that's the reason for the low turnout. For me, it would take that much time to re-hydrate before I could pee anyway.

Serious question(s):
1) In a ST thread not that long ago, someone mentioned the mixing idea won't work - I can't remember the explanation. I think it's a great idea. But, would it really work?

2) if yes to #1, could the same concept be applied to blood testing? I ask because, I'd rather have a vial of blood taken than pee in a cup -_-

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

It's been awhile since I looked at that study, but my recollection is that it counted anything as performance enhancing. So if someone took a legal amount of caffeine for a race they included it ... probably to increase media interest (imagine that). I would be more interested in knowing what the percentage was admitting to the use of banned substances.

From the study: "13% admitted to physical doping (steroids, EPO, human growth hormone, other physical enhancements)" What are other physical enhancements. Well, if you can get in a pharmacy that supposedly counted. So, Tylenol, aspirin, caffeine, legal inhalers, etc count, and the study did not control for what folks answered. By opening the door that wide, the study lost the ability to distinguish how many were using steroids, EPO and HGH. That would have been a far more relevant statistic.

interesting. I figured T would be the easiest to catch since it shuts down the bodies ability to naturally produce T. Doesn't one look one way and the other a certain way in a test? I really don't understand any of this stuff. Of course I was the kid in high school who lived in fear and never did anything super bad because I grew up Southern Baptist and believed I would be the kid God punished. No dope smoking for me because I knew I'd be the kid who got the laced shit. No sex for me because I would have the hole in the condom ( at least that's why I said I wasn't...truth is no girl wanted too, HA!!) I read Tyler Hamiltons book and I understood the "glow" period but I don't know what half life means or any of that. I will say it's easy to spot the HGH guys, skin is sparkly and super tight and they are like 55. EPO, who the hell knows where to even buy that. T is to me the obvious one that would be used but again, I also assume the easiest to be busted with.

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

Maybe your position and bike set-up is just lacking. I wish I could make that kind of power.

Something to consider. Some of these guys might not be dropping huge numbers, but more efficient. I can show you good (average elite AG) vs. great positions/set-up with a 30 Watts difference at IM watts. The real test, how fast did you descend Kuakini and Hawi?

Also, a lot of guys were over biking that first 30 minutes. I was approaching threshold plenty of times on shallow hills and I gave up and let them go by then rolled right past on the descent.


Now... the real dopers... the freaks of nature that could run 7:00-7:15 mile pace in that heat!

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