It'll be interesting to see if anyone is stupid enough to get popped.

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Swim. Overbike. Walk.

o shit i hope they don't find all the ayahuasca in my piss i've been making soooooo many 3rd eye gains lmao BIG chakras

This is encouraging to hear but may I ask how do they know which doors to knock on? I have never had to fill out anything to indicate where I would be staying so how are they finding these people in the first place? (age groupers that is),

They were getting them as they registered today.

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Like

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

yep - that would make sense vs the knocks at the door comment. This is progress me thinks !

So at a time when anyone with a clue would have timed it so everything had cleared his system. Brilliant.

maybe but I just don't think that age groupers are as clever as Lance Armstong and his team of Dr's were.

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Well, a lot of folks here complain about the AG'ers on TRT. Wouldn't necessarily be so simple to pass the test for that on race day, they might catch some.

Some AGers were tested 2/3 weeks ago for testing as well. Hope that is targeted from specific intelligence.

Not a bad thing, but IIRC it's been going on for a few years at Kona. Pulling out AG and maybe some pros at pre-race registration. The body of testing I think is "OOC".

Not really sure if "targeted" IE they pull you out while in line, before registration.

Maurice

A Team Zoot athlete Matt Bach who won the Maryland race was tested twice back at home in NJ and got pulled yesterday as well for a test.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I think by targeted he meant they had some intel via complaints or tips THAT/THOSE person(s) might be on something so they're being tested IE there was nothing random about some of the testing.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

USADA has an anonymous tip line on their website.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I saw it two years ago it appeared to be at least partially random. IE it looked like they were selecting athletes before they showed ID, also a thread on here somewhere about a legacy athlete (from a few years ago) getting pulled out of line at random.

Maurice

Makes me wonder what would rise to the level of them investigating a tip further. I guess if the tip was very explicit and detailed but how many tips are ever going to be from direct and detailed knowledge. If I sent in a tip that Bryan Dunn is on T, EPO, HGH, etc. at what point would they ever look into that if I didn't have very specific information. My guess is most of their tips are of that variety - I think Joe Schmoe is doping but I don't have any proof.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Joe Schmoe's race results are very suspect. I also suspect that his mate Joe Sickspack plans on cutting the course in the Energy Labs. His results have never made sense to me; how can a guy with a beer belly run a sub 2:50 marathon?

But, have you seen his brother's times? JoeMamma ran a 4:45 mile in high school.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

Pssshhhtttt. Down a hill maybe. Sure you're not getting confused with Joe Blow?

Does anyone recall Joe Dirt from Ironman Arizona in 2012?

http://www.pbase.com/...pius/image/147402652

I guess we'll see when people we know don't race?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I think Joe Schmoe, Joe Blow, and Joe Dirt all use the services of Dr. Papschmear.

And don't forget Joe Cool. He's always looked shady to me.

it's the same every year... they test on Mon-Tues

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

wondering how many top amateurs and Euro pros will be pulling out with "the flu" this weekend

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Why do you think the euro pros are anymore susceptible to "the flu" than US pros?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

they don't wash their hands as much?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I wonder if Jurgen Zack is cursing the timing of his return to Kona.

US athletes are smart enough to get TUE's.

Yeah. It really takes a clever one stop using testosterone at the beginning of a two week taper before a race.

Do they get the results back that fast?

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I don't know for steroids, but I know with Illicit drug testing they take the sample, place in an instant test which gives a result then send to a lab for the official, admissible result. I would assume they could test for certain things instantly, but do the full panel l in a lab.

Most common HGH, Testosterone, and anabolics could show up in an in instant panel if they are in the blood stream and that is what the test is looking for. Blood doping, high doses of acceptable items would not. The panel would support use.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Doubt their hormone ratios will return to normal that quickly, which might flag their result for the further isotope test. And I'm pretty sure it would take longer than two weeks for all of it to be out of their system. Anyway, at least they are making an effort to test people!!

I am not an expert on this, but I do not think you can have instant panel for those substances. Since those are all normally present in the body, it takes a bit more work to determine if they are from the actual person or not.

Sure, but they don't test for presence, they test for a tolerance. I'm not a scientist, but I recall in rehab they would randomly test people for drugs. This is anecdotal but people would worry they would get popped on their first visit because they used something in the recent past, but they would pass. I asked the counselor and he said the test detects above certain levels to prevent false positives. Things like poppy seeds can trigger heroine false positive if the test is too rigid. Same for marijuana, ibuprofen can trigger a false positive. So they set it at levels that somebody would have to be a heavy or very recent user to trigger.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

anyone using T is microdosing

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Getting to the point to apply a tolerance is much more difficult for those substances (anabolics and HGH) than the drugs you are talking about. For the tests that you talk about, they are looking at the metabolic products of taking those drugs. The performance enhancing drugs (mostly obviously there are some with metabolic products) do not have unusual metabolic products, they are already in the body. So separating out the non-person ones from the natural ones is tricky.

Sort of. Endurance exercise hammers serum testosterone. To have a significant effect, you don't have to use loads of T like a body builder or use it every day like someone on TRT. You only need a little after key workouts during the week, so T:ET ratios are only affected for short time periods. The length of time T is detectable using CIR varies with the frequency of use. The more frequently T is used, the longer the detection window. If you have not gone overboard by using after every workout then that window is very manageable, like a week or less. For a sport like tri where athletes compete so few times a year then there is no reason not to use two weeks to be safe.

At least this what a little bird told me along with dosages.

Well I'll defer to your expertise. As I said that I know it is done with illicit drugs, but assumed it could apply. I don't know.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

There were four USADA guys waiting for me when I checked out last year. It was quite an experience. They took me to a room in the King K that from all outside appearances looked like a regular hotel room. When they opened up it was gutted out and looked like a small hospital room. After you check in they have you spin a roulette wheel to determine whether piss or blood. I drew blood. The Q&A period took a while and then they gave me two testing kits and asked me to inspect them to make sure that they have not been tampered with. Like I know what I am looking for. All tests are done by Drs. not USADA. It took >1.5 hrs and you cannot use your cell phone so my wife had no idea where I had gone. It was a real pain in the ass. The upside was the USADA folks, the girl I had was quite cool. She told me about testing Lance after the DOJ pulled its case. They knew he was dirty so they made his life hell. You see this in the LA documentary when the two testers arrive at his house within 10 minutes of each other. She also told me about setting up testing protocol in Columbia, which appears to be a complete joke. I am quite sceptical of the Colombian cyclists after hearing her description of the half assed testing that goes on down there. One thing that pissed me off was that they never sent me any documentation of the test or outcome. I specifically requested this and they told me that I would get it within 6 weeks but it never arrived. Despite the PIA factor I applaud what they are doing and am happy to submit to testing.

I'm totally naive to all this doping stuff. I often just think that people are "genetic freaks" when I'm destroyed on a course by somebody. Then again I've raced the likes of Lionel Sanders and Cody Beals for the good part of 3 years (before they stepped up fully to Pro Circuit). What are people using? I saw HGH, Testostrone and Anabolics listed but are their other common substances that are being abused? How the hell do these people get their hands on this stuff? I was under the impression that Triathlon had more integrity than this.

Shame people stoop to this level it makes me that much more motivated to show them up cleanly!

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Got me on Wednesday.
here's what I got out of it.

My packet was discretely marked and as soon as I identified myself, they expedited me through mass registration. It seemed like a cluster because the regular volunteers were all confused why I was getting shuffled around. I just thought they didn't have their act together yet.

Once I finished registration, just before exiting, my handler informed me I had been "randomly selected" for drug testing. I managed to ask a few other volunteers that all said the process was random.

We were crammed in a shelled hotel room with 4 USADA agents and a couple nurses. There were 7 "random" athletes.
At some point, somebody ask who else was a 1st overall amateur at their KQing race.
Turns out it was the whole room.

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@christopher_borden •
Spinning Spoke • Dimond Bikes • Flo Cycling • Castelli Cycling

So I guess the moral of the story is to dope, sandbag your KQ race and finish 2nd overall and then you can take it easy

If that is the number of people that they can afford to test, then I'm happy how they did it. It -should- be the top guys being tested. If they have more money to test further down, wonderful. But start with the fastest, naturally.

Your air quotes make me believe that you feel you were singled out for a pee pee test. Just curious, were you agitated that you had to go through that process?

I'm a fan of anything they/we can do to GET the sport clean. I was actually very excited to see how the process works, far from agitated.

My use of quotes was to convey my skepticism of the randomness in the selection process.
I'm just not important enough to be singled out
Yet!

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@christopher_borden •
Spinning Spoke • Dimond Bikes • Flo Cycling • Castelli Cycling

Actually, you'd want to start with the fastest, unnaturally.

I also think that they should make public any who are found doping or using illegal substances. Also they should be banned from racing anytime soon

What about Joey Bag o' donuts? All kidding aside....this issue has me wondering if I want to persue my second IM in an attempt at Kona. Missed it by a few on my first IM ( IMMT) Despite a few screw ups ( which I would not do again). Why bust my balls training if there are so many dopers racing? Recent article shows 1 out of 7! WTF!!! If its that high in the entire race, How high is it for competitive AG'ers going for a Kona slot? Would bet its even higer. Anyway......I may do Texas...will see. Im looking for a good reason to train hard again. Question: where there any AG'ers removed from racing Kona? Does this drug policy have any teeth? Another question about testing: It is clear that these "cheaters" know when to stop whatever it is there doing as not to get caught. Random testing "anytime" needs to happen. Those caught cheeting need to be exposed for what they are.......F- ing loosers and be banned from the sport. If someone dopes though, how the hell are they going to check that? They can just say their hematocrit is high ( blood levels) because they have been training at high altitude? This whole thing pisses me off. I hope it is taken seriously and harsh punishments are implemented. Again.....has anyone here on ST seen anyone removed from competition because of this?

Some thoughts to cheer you up.
1) If 1 in 7 AGers are doping- that means you are already beating at least half of those cheating losers.
2) In addition to cheaters- there are also people who are more talented than you and people who don't have the same work/family commitment as you. They have an unfair advantage. There is nothing you can do about that either. BUT it will feel that much better when you excel and qualify anyway.

Well 10th out of 400 in my group or so......Beating more than that. Im more concerned about the other 8 or 9. Maybe they were all natural and well trained but this recent study says that is doubtful. If I race Texas I will qualify barring and major issues but still sucks to hear of this cheating and a grand scale.....

A thought struck me as I came back to this thread.

I think they are doing the testing all wrong.

What they should really do is test an entire age group. Randomly select an age group and test everyone in it. Right now they randomly select a few across the entire range. It's a bit hit or miss. If 1 in 7 are doping (and I think more) then lets stop playing Russian roulette and test an entire group at one time. If it's really one in seven then in an age group with 200 people in it, they will (and they will) catch thirty or more.

If your chances are pretty remote within an age group of being the one person selected, there's less incentive to stop. But if you know that when an age group is selected, everyone is going to be tested, there's no place to hide. I'm guessing a few perennial winners will retire.

Men or woman is fine, although I tend to think of woman as more honest, that is probably just chauvinism on my part.

Ken66- this is just my experience.
But... I have raced Kona 3 times, Olympic distance worlds, and I swam division I in college.
The majority of people that I know who consistently beat me - are usually more talented, train harder- or both. They don't need to cheat.

The two places where I have observed cheating:
1) Low level power sports- ie. highschool football and body builders at the local gym. (Honestly - I consider these athletes way below me. I don't care what they do).
2) Top level world championship level athletes. (These people are way better than me- with or without drugs. And they have economic incentives.)

Cheating is a sign of disrespect- both for yourself and for the sport. Economic incentives might cause one to cross that line.
But if you don't respect yourself, or the sport- are you really going to want to "train your ass off."

1 out of 7:
How many of those are BOP athletes who took drugs for non-performance issues?
How many are undisciplined MOP athletes who think they want to win but can't be bothered doing the training- they take PEDs but don't realize any benefit?
How many are are FOP athletes who came down with a health issue and never got around to getting a TUE- as they weren't training for anything in particular- and weren't using the PED as part of any plan?

Now how many are organized, deliberate cheaters?

The number of "organized deliberate" cheaters will be pretty small in the amateur ranks.

I love your idea. Problem though is the cost. I read somewhere that it costs like $500 per test! I think they need to focus on the "fast guys and gals" I feel anyone who qualifies or is real close to qualifying needs to be on the list for mandatory testing. Also, anyone who has qualified in the past, or anyone who, through data research, has been in the top 1-2% in their AG should be randomly tested at ANY time of the season so that the can not "time" their illigal activties.

Statistically, your chance of getting caught are the same if they test an entire age group or continue with random testing.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

There are liars, dammed liars and statistics.

Except for you, I think the none statisticians would be scared witless if they did it.

please provide the link for the article you say states 1 in 7....

There was a thread a little while back where lots of articles were cited.
The "1 in 7"quote was reasoned speculation by one of the people who conducted the study (i think)

Agree with the above - Assuming that doping is equally common across age groups and genders, which I realise it likely isn't, roughly the same percentage of tests will come back positive no matter how you go about it.
The benefit of testing all of an age group would be that you would totally clean up that single age group. For a year.
The downside is that you grant a guarantee to everybody who's not in that age group that they won't be tested that year.

They could probably weight testing towards age groups that have been found to dope more (my guess is that men 30yrs and up are the worst offenders due to male ego and disposable income), but I'm in favour of mostly just testing at random.

I agree with you...Kona amateurs would have some fairly high PED use. On the way out on the bike leg...(I swam 59min so I had plenty of opportunity to observe this.. :)) I as blown away by some incredible speed on the bike. Would love to think that is all hard work and human potential...but when you are doing 280watts in a aero position on a p5 and getting passed as though you are standing still....a little birdie makes you wonder.

It's both hard and not hard to imagine amateur athletes doping when there is no money at stake. I think for all of us who aspire to the fast end of IM performances...the lure of speed motivates us to do so much already...for some...the drug route is just another aspect of their "all out" mentality.

More testing and more importantly MORE PUBLICATION of the testing and results (cheaper deterrent!) would be very helpful towards a fairer playing field.

As for your dreams in Kona Ken66....forget about what others are doing...you can do it clean and it is worth it. Kill it!

scca_ita wrote:

please provide the link for the article you say states 1 in 7....

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/...doping-epo-steroids/

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/...lon-doping-study.pdf

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

It wasn't speculation. It was a questionnaire filled out by the athletes. See my links.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

First time I ever read that study. Didn't know that it was a survey or just taken from a sample of athletes racing in Germany from 3 races.

Do people actually ever read these studies when they make claims that 1 in 7 athletes use PED's? It also seems that cognitive doping is more prevalent than physical doping....

"The prevalence of cognitive doping was higher than the prevalence of physical doping. At first sight, this seems to be paradoxical. The use of cognitive doping in athletes, however, is not forbidden and not associated with sanctions."


Would be better if they tested from a much broader demographic then pull their data from 3 German races.

unless you were doing 27+mph on that 280w(assuming not a tailwind or downhill), I'd think that birdie might be looking for a port-o-let

The study was conducted by Germans.

I think the numbers would actually be worse if it was conducted in the States. The Low-T bullshit isn't as prevalent in Europe as it is here.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

While I doubt that anyone would ever do this, I think it would be easy to put in place a random testing of a complete age group. Simply have the entire age group pee in a cup at registration. You want to register, you have to pee.

Heck considering nearly everyone is sipping from a bottle as they wait in line, filling a cup would be the least of their problems (stopping might be another). Two tents, one table, a little magic marker and a few rubber gloves. Would love to see the affect that would have.

Of course there would be those who would claim some infringement on their rights, but I suspect you could cover that in the original registration process. Tick a box, pee in a cup. Heck, you wouldn't even have to test all of the samples, as long as everyone pee'd, that would be enough to dissuade most. I would bet an awfull lot of competitors would get "sick", suddenly too ill to compete, today.

Oh well, like so many things in life, it's just another wet dream (sorry for the pun).

Have the top 10 all pee in the same cup. If a positive hit then they are all marked for an out of comp test or all get blood draw later if there is a test for whatever they find. Cuts down on costs and leads to some more information and would deter the doper and other possible dopers in the group.

Now wouldn't that be a gas.

You're right, you would combine a group, if that group comes up positive, test the group individually.
I suspect if you did the math, you could make it work, both in cost and deterrence.
But not just the top ten overall, but in selected age groups.

Sign me up!

I see someone has beat me to it and provided the story...thanks. Yas it was a survey so..this is people who admit it. How many athletes doing it but not admitting it? Makes you wonder. I like the idea of every singe athlete pissing in a cup. Does not mean they will be tested but they"may be chosen to be tested" Should cut down on the cheaters. There will still be the sophisticated cheater who knows when to "get off the juice" just before a big race though. I don't know how these people race and accept their results. Any cheaters reading this let me tell you how I and others feel about you as I know some of you are reading this........You suck. You cant do it on your own .....this is why you cheat......genetically you lack the ability and that's why you do what you do. Sure you can tell people of your grand accomplishments but deep down in your psyche you know what you really are......If I choose to race 2016 I will show up at the venue. I will look around not knowing who you are or which of you are juicing but rest assured I will try to beat your ass naturally.
Sure I know.....you were feeling weak one day so you went to your doctor and he drew some blood......told you your T level was low. Guess what? Its called aging. That's what happens to your body as you age. Im just about 50 now. I would like to have the same amount of T floating around in my system as when I was 25 but Im not 25 anymore. I have the T level of a 50 year old. Id like to race against other guys my age who are in the same boat man. I don't mind getting my ass kicked by a clean athlete. I respect them for their god given ability and their hard work ethic, but I have absolutely no respect for the clown who uses ........even if a Dr provided you a reason for feeling " your age"

Heres an idea. Test each age group podium group as a pool (a communal piss bucket) and test it after the race. Give people the option to walk away if they don't want to be included...but they get no award/recognition. If the pooled sample comes up positive, then that age group was a fun run that year (i.e. no awards that year for that age group). Let them all know, and things will naturally sort themselves out. If there is no benefit to racing all doped up then it should stop. Sometimes the most effective answer is not the easiest one...Remember that we are just playing our favorite game here; this is not life and death.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

though I like (love actually) your idea. many times people don't show for awards. As an example: Wildflower long course had 1 person in my AG show up for awards (out of 5). To be fair, they wait a really long time before doing awards, and, most folks want to hit the road - that's the reason for the low turnout. For me, it would take that much time to re-hydrate before I could pee anyway.

Serious question(s):
1) In a ST thread not that long ago, someone mentioned the mixing idea won't work - I can't remember the explanation. I think it's a great idea. But, would it really work?

2) if yes to #1, could the same concept be applied to blood testing? I ask because, I'd rather have a vial of blood taken than pee in a cup -_-

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

It's been awhile since I looked at that study, but my recollection is that it counted anything as performance enhancing. So if someone took a legal amount of caffeine for a race they included it ... probably to increase media interest (imagine that). I would be more interested in knowing what the percentage was admitting to the use of banned substances.

From the study: "13% admitted to physical doping (steroids, EPO, human growth hormone, other physical enhancements)" What are other physical enhancements. Well, if you can get in a pharmacy that supposedly counted. So, Tylenol, aspirin, caffeine, legal inhalers, etc count, and the study did not control for what folks answered. By opening the door that wide, the study lost the ability to distinguish how many were using steroids, EPO and HGH. That would have been a far more relevant statistic.

interesting. I figured T would be the easiest to catch since it shuts down the bodies ability to naturally produce T. Doesn't one look one way and the other a certain way in a test? I really don't understand any of this stuff. Of course I was the kid in high school who lived in fear and never did anything super bad because I grew up Southern Baptist and believed I would be the kid God punished. No dope smoking for me because I knew I'd be the kid who got the laced shit. No sex for me because I would have the hole in the condom ( at least that's why I said I wasn't...truth is no girl wanted too, HA!!) I read Tyler Hamiltons book and I understood the "glow" period but I don't know what half life means or any of that. I will say it's easy to spot the HGH guys, skin is sparkly and super tight and they are like 55. EPO, who the hell knows where to even buy that. T is to me the obvious one that would be used but again, I also assume the easiest to be busted with.

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

Maybe your position and bike set-up is just lacking. I wish I could make that kind of power.

Something to consider. Some of these guys might not be dropping huge numbers, but more efficient. I can show you good (average elite AG) vs. great positions/set-up with a 30 Watts difference at IM watts. The real test, how fast did you descend Kuakini and Hawi?

Also, a lot of guys were over biking that first 30 minutes. I was approaching threshold plenty of times on shallow hills and I gave up and let them go by then rolled right past on the descent.


Now... the real dopers... the freaks of nature that could run 7:00-7:15 mile pace in that heat!

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

"Physical" doping with drugs listed requires a physician does it not?

This sport is already crazy expensive at the IM level.

What is the cost typical, timing for key races, cadence of Doctors Visits/Blood Tests of "Physical Doping" - Is it effective unless you are under a physicians care? Probably very dangerous if not....

In my AG I still give everyone the benefit of the doubt as I try to get to know most of my competition more personally, some would almost say I am a stalker but enjoy learning about people as it is one of the fun aspects of this lifestyle.

I wish I was fast enough to even be CONSIDERED for a drug test. lol :)

Yes, to #1 and yes to #2. I see what you mean about showing up for awards though...as it does sometimes take a while to have those results up; and people have to get back to work. One thing that could work though is to have the samples taken for the top X number and give them the option to 'opt out' for personal, religious, or whatever reason. If you are doing testing, this would maximize return on investment in terms of problem elimination.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

This idea may work long term but short term it would suck. May take several AG category's being eliminated to eventually deter the scumbags from doping. Other thing is the sample may be too diluted by the "clean" athletes urine and be rendered negative or trace positive. I just like the idea of a watchdog group in the Tri community that is give the power and ability to watch , scan, and research athletes and test randomly and directly by red flags. Computers are great at looking for trends etc......there could be pre set triggers that flag an athlete. For instance......guys doing half for a few years....averaging in the 4:35-4:50 range as a 40 -50 year old guy, the bam! he runs a 422 and shortly after runs a 4:30. That guy needs to piss in a cup. Maybe he was not training hard for the first few years and now has, but that should be a red flag. I ran my first IM and got top 10. I would expect to be pissing in a cup as well. If I was doing roids, EPO, HGH, or T they could catch me now....and do it before I go to Texas and get a Kona spot and screw over a clean athlete who deserves it.

Justify it however you like, but that sounds like an uninvited intrusion into another athlete's personal life.

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Proud Representative of Slowtwitch Anti-Atheists Society.

As a compromise of these...do the pissing cup/ pooled blood (or whatever) and do the testing; and then make those results very public. Let the problem air in the open so that those who want to do something about it can. In terms of dilution...that is not a big problem for a properly designed test (I develop next generation diagnostic technology) and it would put it all out there so that suspicious things in the public record could be scrutinized for inconsistent data. This would satisfy me as a competitor (i.e. to know if I were playing on a level field or not).

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

If a cheater or (unfortunately ) a clean athlete "in the pointy end) of competition wants to get on the podium, they should expect and understand the intrusions .....I personally welcome it. I don't enjoy having my blood drawn or pissing in cups but knowing it is being done to ensure a fair race and sport, them I'm all for it. I know dopers, roid heads , and losers getting hgh and T just for performance gains will not like this at all and that is a very good thing.......

Unfortunately at this time you can't do "group" sampling and collection. A bunch of issues surrounding due process and collection, dilution of samples, and privacy etc.

The process is intended to be standardized across the globe, by WADA. IE a 5-6 step process that goes from notifying the athlete -> sampling and collection -> testing the sample and then appeal process if required.

Also if you group tested say 10 athletes in Kona and it goes positive then 4-8 weeks later when the results come through you could potentially have to contact 10 athletes and NGB's from 10 different countries in order to re-test. The only situations where we generally hear of almost immediate results are from large events like Olympics, TDF or IAAF worlds where they have mobile "accredited" labs on sight.

For example an AG or Pro tested at Tremblant could be positive and still race Kona if the results haven't been processed yet.

Maurice

I believe last year that Antonio Colom appeared in Kona, mysteriously did not race, and has not been seen in triathlon yet again. A very mysterious and abrupt disappearance from the fastest AGer out there.

Are all positives and suspensions made public? Or could he have popped and have some agreement that it does not become public and he does not contest the results or something like that? Is it dependent on country whether a positive is made public?

I've wondered the same thing. How is it possible that 1 in 7 triathletes are doping (which IMO seems very high, but maybe I'm just naive) and no age groupers have been busted and/or DQ'd at Kona with all the testing that has been done there in recent years. I can imagine that WTC would prefer the illusion that their testing keeps cheaters away than publish the names of people caught.

All positive test results are published by USADA. You can see who's been tested here.

http://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/


Pretty sure the red font indicates that the athlete is in the OOC testing pool.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
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you just answered your own question... think about it.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

OK, I thought about it, but don't know if I came to the correct answer. If you're implying that everyone knows that they test at Kona, so they show up clean (whether or not they are clean throughout the season), I'm still surprised that nobody has slipped up and been busted. Then again, maybe most of the cheating is focused on qualifying races. With little hope of actually placing high in Kona, no point in cheating.

Am I missing something?

Obviously, yes, the testing does not catch everybody.

I, personally, do not believe that 1 in 7 are doping. I know that won't be a popular sentiment around these parts, but it's not like even the top amateur performances are superhuman and inconceivable without drugs.

Now, back to Colom. I still find it strange that he dominated in 2014, paid to race at Kona and even showed up, but then did not toe the starting line and has not raced since. Honestly, the turnaround time is too fast for him to have been tested Kona week and then come back positive and prohibited from racing, plus he doesn't show on the USADA list. But, could the WADA testing agency for Spain have tested him OOC early and only notified him of a positive the week of Kona, and then no public news ever? Now that sounds like a stretch, and I'm sure there is some other, totally benign reason for him attending but not starting Kona 2014 and never racing again, but it's never come up.

 It's a logic problem.

1. They're not testing
2. They're testing but not releasing results
3. They're testing but not catching anyone because it's easy to evade
4. They're testing but not catching anyone because everyone is clean

I see two possible options based on original assumptions that they are testing and 15% dope

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

He started but DNF'd by about mile 40 of the bike, as for the rest yes - he's been MIA since as best I can tell.

   
But everyone gave him such a warm welcome in the the sport. Can't imagine why he'd turn away from that open hospitality.

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TrainingBible Coaching
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Yup. The tests are not very effective, and most doping takes place during training not during racing.

I don't know what people are expected to be using right before getting tested. Who is going to fly into Hawaii with EPO in hand, take it through TSA, and inject it a few days before the race instead of using it in the final two to three weeks in their training, stopping a week before the race, and enjoying the effects for the next few weeks?

I apologize for the misinformation. For over a year now I'd been under the impression that he was a DNS.

Dumb people need to be caught also.

Sure you can figure out when the stuff will be out of your system, but do you really know that? This sort of testing will also keep the smart dopers from going so full gas. It adds another layer of complexity to doping, so it does increase the chance of someone screwing up. It needs to be done in combination with out of competition testing, but I am betting this testing is cheaper than the out of competition testing.

With no intent in starting a pissing match or argument (more curious than anything), do you have any stats/math to show that it would work to pool samples? Even at n=5. My intuition tells me you'd need an exquisitely sensitive and selective test for the marker in question, and that would entirely eliminate and sort of multifactorial analysis due to confounding. But intuition isn't usually the right approach when dealing with complex problems. :)

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

I can only answer that with an answer of 'yes'; but I cant provide data that I can share in a public forum. This can be done for protein, small molecules, or even expression levels (which would provide an interesting profile of what is going on invivo...although this would be not very informative on a pooled sample). It is all about sample prep. which is often overlooked. Of course, with this said I currently work on the pointy end of things where we figure out how to make things work...this is different than putting something in a box for sale.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

I would actually agree and say that it is close to at least 50% AG PED use here in the states.

All the local coffeeshops had lines out the door and plenty of athletes were drinking caffeinated coffee on race morning at IMWI this year. According to the German survey that would be considered a PED, so plenty of offenders here in Madison.

I guess i use PED's too. Ban me for life.

Haha, I work (err, pretend to move forward in my Ph.D) in sample prep for a diagnostic platform. I'm not truly on the bio side of the world, so clearly my understanding of what's possible is limited.

Totally understand a huge portion of this stuff is proprietary

This was more my point--I couldn't see how you'd do any kind of test once you stop looking at the exogenous molecules, which seems a large basis for the whole blood passport. If you're going for the glow period, or with a more sensitive test, extending the glow period, then I can understand.

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

You are right...I was thinking more of unique molecular signatures of some chemical byproduct as opposed to changed levels of endogenous biomolecules. Good catch.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

Thinking about 15% are "dopers" and looking over the WADA list:
Marijuana is on the list.
Oxycodone is on the list
Morphine
(Other morphine based pain killers- not sure about hydrocodone)
Glucocorticoids are one the list (ie.prednisone- I think).

I am not sure but what is that.... 15% of all prescriptions.
Triathletes go to the doctor. Sometimes they get prescriptions!

Let's just say:
You smoke pot when you are on vacation in Colorado. Later that year you get a kidney stone. The doctor gives you a pain killer (most are morphine based) and prednisone pills. You stopped taking both pills a couple of days after you pass the stone.

You don't apply for a TUE for any of this stuff.
"These drugs might help someone, sometime- but that is not why I took them."

You are asked on a survey if you are a doper.
You say yes- because you read the list. (But were uncertain when and how it applies).

They don't test you because you are just an average MOP athlete.
But- if they do test- they don't notice (or care) about the prednisone, hydrocodone and marijuana that you took 6 months ago.
The testers were too busy looking for people taking anabolic steroids and epo!!! They were too busy looking for real cheaters!! They never got around to busting you.

All this is actually the way it should be.
Maybe the "problem" is not as big as we think?

Thinking about 15% are "dopers" and looking over the WADA list:
Marijuana is on the list.
Oxycodone is on the list
Morphine //

I highly doubt that any of these are tested for in AG athletes, along with a very long list of other marginal drugs. My guess is that they go for the big 4, T, HGH, EPO, and Growth Hormone. Just do those 4 and you will get your real cheaters. Saves a lot of money in the tests too, so they can do a lot more of them. These are your "longevity" drugs, the easy ones that most can get their doctors to prescribe, and in most cases when they really don't even need them!

Yeah I agree.
Hopefully the testers are looking for deliberate cheaters.
This is what they should be doing.

Still - there is this statistic out there that 15% of age group triathletes are doping.
That could be true!
And yet it might also be true that almost no-one ever gets caught!

One explanation for this is that "the list" contains so many things.
Most people have been prescribed (or used) some of these substances at some point in their lives.

Some people might even be aware of this.
And might say "yes" they have "doped".
Because technically they have.
They took prednisone and Vicodin to treat a kidney stone.
(Transpose 10,000 other common ailments and common drugs).
They didn't get a TUE.
And they aren't concerned about getting caught.
Because they probably won't.
Which all makes sense.
But they do show up on surveys as "dopers."
Creating the impression that there are lots of "dopers" out their.

My understanding is that you can't isolate for testing, IE a legacy athlet in kona gets pulled out of line at registration he will get the same OOC testing as Frodeno, etc OOC.

Marijuana and alcohol are both banned IC but not OOC. Also treated differently than EPO etc, remember that AG cyclist from Colorado who was busted for Pot IC? She got 6 months...then reduced to 3 with some sort of counciling/program etc, as opposed to 2-4 years with the other stuff.

Remember the drunk russian high junper in Lausanne in 2008?...he got a stern warning from IAAF and won gold in London.

Maurice

Unfortunately I don't think WADA has a "Age Grouper Lite" version of the test. USACycling recently sanctioned the equivalent of an age grouper for marijuana, after having tested positive at the Manhattan Beach Grand Prix.

It's not quite the same, because she was in the Pro-1-2 race, along with all the pros. But she's Cat 2 and races for a non-pro team. You'd think they'd only select pro-licensed racers out of that race. Unless they were testing under the "RaceClean" program which specifically tests amateurs. It's unclear to me if that was a RaceClean test or a full-up pro test.

Hello monty and All,

What is the difference between HGH and Growth Hormone?

Was that a typo?

Is there any evidence that doctors (in most cases) prescribe "longevity' drugs when not indicated?

Why is athlete drug testing not transparent ..... is the secrecy necessary to preserve some advantage ............ and would not the procedures be revealed and authenticated when someone challenges a finding in the discovery phase of an appeal?

Sometimes it seems that athlete drug testing procedures are more related to media politics than medical science and criminal law.

monty wrote in part: "I highly doubt that any of these are tested for in AG athletes, along with a very long list of other marginal drugs. My guess is that they go for the big 4, T, HGH, EPO, and Growth Hormone. Just do those 4 and you will get your real cheaters. Saves a lot of money in the tests too, so they can do a lot more of them. These are your "longevity" drugs, the easy ones that most can get their doctors to prescribe, and in most cases when they really don't even need them![/quote]"

.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster