If more people who had evidence of cheating would use USADA's reporting system it would really help. They monitor that closely and will respond to reports made.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Everything has a price. Time and money. With 2000+ athletes at Kona there is a lot of cost in time and money associated with taking that many blood or urine samples.

They do. I can attest to it. One of my AG guys that qualified in 2015 got tested OOC pre Kona 2015 (US athlete, US based).

How much they do? Who nows....

D.

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

That's great to hear.

Testing at registration might catch some people initially, but if people know that is where testing occurs it becomes an intelligence test vs. a drug test. OOC is critical given the short glow times.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

It takes a lot of resources to take a sample. I haven't timed it with a stopwatch, but when I've been tested it has felt like it has taken about an hour to complete the entire process. And a lot of that time needs a desk to work at, where you can sit with the anti-doping officer while all the paperwork is completed, you do the splitting of the sample into the A and B jars, the AD officer tests the specific gravity of the sample, and there's all manner of boxes, bags, sticky labels etc all over the desk as part of the process. ID has to be verified and the details recorded, you have to list all the supplements you've taken, it's all very time consuming. To take a sample from everyone would need a huge number of anti-doping officers and desks to work at, along with the space to house them all.

I know of an age grouper in years past that wasn't able to race Kona because they couldn't find a vein and repeatedly stabbed her in multiple locations in a very futile attempt to find a vein and draw blood. She even warned them it would be a problem and asked for a physician.

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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"

That doesn't seem fair to the athlete. The failure of the tester to find a vein is not a doping failure or a refusal to test. It just strikes me as an injustice.

She should have ground for protesting that if that's the case.

If the amount of blood that can be removed from the Athlete at the first attempt is insufficient, the BCO shall repeat the procedure up to a maximum of three attempts in total. Should all three attempts fail to produce a sufficient amount of blood, then the BCO shall inform the DCO. The DCO shall terminate the Sample Collection Session and record this and the reasons for terminating the collection.

If the DCO terminates the Collection, it is not an official "Failure to Comply." And there's no listed sanction in the WADA Code where you skip one event. You're either formally sanctioned, or you're not formally sanctioned. There is no "one day" penalty. And there is no penalty without due process, e.g. the athlete is afforded the opportunity to challenge or arbitrate.

Is it possible this age grouper was telling a story about why she left Kona?

Edit: Maybe there is a one-day thing. Just can't find it written as policy anywhere.

I was tested in '13 before Kona. As stated above it was a long and uncomfortable process, painfully redundant, picking tubes and collection devices, signing a bunch of stuff.

And these are government employees. They are NOT phlebotomists. I have great veins, and any 1st day nursing student could hit my veins with no difficulty. But not the guy who did my testing. He rooted around in my arm for 20 minutes. When I complained, he replied we could stop but I couldn't race on Saturday. Finally he lucked up and got a small sample then off to the bathroom to watch me pee, standing much closer to my genitals than a Seinfeld close talker.

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Why would you want a physician to draw blood? A phlebotomist will be much better at getting a good stick than a physician that last drew blood or started an IV back in med school. I'm glad they didn't resort to a Intraosseous draw.

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Oui, mais pas de femme toute de suite (yes, but I am not ready for a woman straight away) -Stephen Roche's reply when asked whether he was okay after collapsing at the finish in the La Plagne stage of the 1987 Tour

I wonder why people would show up glowing at registration ... surely you would not be on an EPO cycle during race week. For testosterone, I believe the T/E ratio test can quite easily be dealt with if you know you might get tested at registration and CIR is expensive (too expensive for age group testing????).

Wouldn't one lay off the T for some time before registration or does that push you off a cliff?

Hello Trail and All,

How much blood does it take to do the USADA tests currently?

If the USADA tests requires a blood draw of more than one drop ...... I think the blood draw of more than one drop should be after the race ..... I want all my blood to race ..... and not have a big bruise on my arm to boot while racing.

Then all the drug test involves is a finger prick.


There are one drop blood testing machines for a regular CBC ..... are there not one drop machines for drugs?

And yes I am familiar with the Theranos fraud.

There are one drop machines for Warfarin INR levels ..... one drop machines for glucose levels and so .... one drop test cards for blood type ......... that have been in use for years.

Otherwise for on the spot tests just prior to racing ...... use urine tests or hair sample or something less invasive and save the athlete's blood for racing.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

You mean like Nina Kraft? If you could get away with it you might.
Anyway, that is why you have out of competition, at registration, and post race testing.

..

I have a friend who is an elite age group cyclocross racer in the US. They were told at the lineup of a recent regional cyclocross race "we will be testing the winner & one random athlete at the conclusion of todays race"....

Talk about a bullshit policy to announce prior to a race. Easy way to dodge the system & lose on purpose if you are in fact guilty.

The whole system is broke but I think if it was fixed, we'd all be paying $300 annual USAT fees to cover the cost.

I think you mean "chain of custody."

Ian

They are not government employees.

I had a dco and a phlebotomist visit my house.

What's funny is when they say that and then some athletes immediately get in their cars and leave. That's happened at some SoCal masters races.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Would it not be good practice to test all Kona qualifiers on their qualifying raceday (after they've crossed the line), and then again randomly at some point before Kona raceday?

I've no idea of logistics or cost, but I would think once all Kona Qualifiers are known (approx. 2500 athletes), it should be a straight forward exercise in picking random dates and testing all competitors before Kona raceday? Same could be done for 70.3 Worlds too no?

I think that way you know have some confidence they were clean when they qualified, and the so-called "world championships" are clean too.

well...
If people really decide not to race, then, I guess on the bright side we know for sure they didn't take away a finishing spot from a clean rider (or at least a rider that is willing to take a test). It's something anyway. Who says testing doesn't have a deterrent effect? They may still use PED's to look like super stars during training, but, if they are afraid to show up for a race - that's pretty good.

I chuckle at someone going all the way from Europe to Kona - and then pull out, and not race - If I didn't see a cast on an arm or leg; guess what I'd be thinking (any time I'd see them at any event)???

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

In her experience it's been the opposite apparently. She has very deep veins it seems and usually has no problems when an md does the blood drawing. This was one of many blood drawing problems in her life apparently. She was left rather sore, back and blue in multiple locations and had a rather irritated staff because they couldn't get blood from her.

She's gone do Kona twice ... No testing at either of those. But I bet she's still irritated. Haven't seen her in some time.

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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"

Trail, as I understood it at the time, it was her decision to not race. As she explained it each of the attempts to draw blood also involved a great deal of probing and poking and was quite painful. They got zilch in blood from her too apparently.

After I wrote up the original post I realized I'd probably given the wrong impression. Sorry about that. In my defense, I'm a bit under the weather after Ironman week. At least that my story ...

Speaking of drug testing Kona athletes, I did see Mr. Low T here during the week leading up to the big dance.

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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"

Think about the cost involved in testing 2500 people. Think about what is required in terms of people and $$ just to test one athlete.

How do they decide who to test? In all the Ironman events I've done, I've never known someone who's been tested. What if, as an athlete, you suspect another athlete of it?

Or just make 2500 people think theyve been tested. Only process 25 samples. A simple urine test is enough.

This was what I thought, no need to buy an array of mass spec's. Tack $5 on to my entry for the specimen cup, collect a sample during registration, & randomly discard 2475 of them. This would provide a likelihood that anyone could be tested.