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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
7ofClubs wrote:
I would like to see every AG in the top ten have to submit a test. Add a choice on the entry form, Do you want to qualify for Kona? If yes, You are required to test pre/post race. Add 50 bucks to the entry fee for those that do, at $600+ does it really matter? Will it get rid of all of it? No, but I think it would help.

I like a little randomness and uncertainty in every stage. If you make things predictable, then you set a nice easy goalpost to defeat the system.

For example maybe one year they do most of the testing upon registration onsite. Then the next year they use all their money to do random out-of-competition testing, showing up at the doors of some qualifiers a few weeks prior to Kona.

I really like this idea and for once I would totally agree with an extra fee. This testing fee should work in a way that everyone knows that they will be tested no matter what, only not sure when. Let's say som people don't pay it, no problem: there's a huge line of honest and clean athletes that would gladly pay it if it means that they take a slot and the field is even. I would also like to see far more AG testing at all IM races, they are making piles of cash anyways.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
This was what I thought, no need to buy an array of mass spec's. Tack $5 on to my entry for the specimen cup, collect a sample during registration, & randomly discard 2475 of them. This would provide a likelihood that anyone could be tested.

I tried to explain to you why this isn't possible, did you not see my post? In addition to what I said previously, it simply isn't possible for the anti-doping agencies to have the available personnel to collect so many samples, as they wouldn't be able to provide work for such a large number of people the rest of the year, even if the venue for that one event had enough suitable toilets and desk space to handle the collection of so many samples. There's a heck of a lot more to collecting a sample than someone just peeing into a cup.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
turningscrews wrote:
This was what I thought, no need to buy an array of mass spec's. Tack $5 on to my entry for the specimen cup, collect a sample during registration, & randomly discard 2475 of them. This would provide a likelihood that anyone could be tested.

I tried to explain to you why this isn't possible, did you not see my post? In addition to what I said previously, it simply isn't possible for the anti-doping agencies to have the available personnel to collect so many samples, as they wouldn't be able to provide work for such a large number of people the rest of the year, even if the venue for that one event had enough suitable toilets and desk space to handle the collection of so many samples. There's a heck of a lot more to collecting a sample than someone just peeing into a cup.


:sigh: somehow people aren't understanding the cost in time and resources.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcoffee wrote:
kennykill wrote:
Would it not be good practice to test all Kona qualifiers on their qualifying raceday (after they've crossed the line), and then again randomly at some point before Kona raceday?

I've no idea of logistics or cost, but I would think once all Kona Qualifiers are known (approx. 2500 athletes), it should be a straight forward exercise in picking random dates and testing all competitors before Kona raceday? Same could be done for 70.3 Worlds too no?

I think that way you know have some confidence they were clean when they qualified, and the so-called "world championships" are clean too.


Think about the cost involved in testing 2500 people. Think about what is required in terms of people and $$ just to test one athlete.

But would the total number to be tested not be divided out between the each country tri federations affiliated to WADA to arrange the testing? How do the other sports test their athletes, especially in sports that have way more participants than triathlon? Or is my thinking too simplistic and fantastical?
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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I have been thru a number of airports where you walk up to a machine, push a button and it shows red or green. Red you get extra security check, green you go on thru. How about having something like this at registration and at finish line. Set the sample size to the amount of funding, people and space available. Completely random and covers the entire field very visibly. Now...how to handle out of competition, that is the real issue I think.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [kennykill] [ In reply to ]
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Testing is expensive, we all get that. So why not levy some kind of fine to people who test positive, and use the money to expand the testing program.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [caffeinator] [ In reply to ]
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To the thread: part of the problem is a lack of transparency of how often tests are currently carried out which makes it difficult to gauge how well, or not, WTC is doing on this issue.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [caffeinator] [ In reply to ]
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caffeinator wrote:
Testing is expensive, we all get that. So why not levy some kind of fine to people who test positive, and use the money to expand the testing program.

Who is doing the fining? As the testing agency, USADA and WADA would have a serious conflict of interest if assessing fines created a profit center for them. That's the last thing we need. And how do you feel about a private entity like WTC assessing fines on their customers? I'm all for increasing the length of the suspensions and imposing lifetime bans for a repeat offense, but I think you are going down a problematic path when you non-profits and for-profits start assessing fines for something that is neither a criminal or a civil infraction. Better to just kick them out of your sandbox...permanently.

BTW, the ITU assessed a $1000 USD fine on Julie Miller for cheating and another $2000 USD for procedural expenses. What do you think the odds are of the ITU collecting that $3K?
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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Agree. 0 chance anyone would pay for those fees
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [kennykill] [ In reply to ]
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kennykill wrote:
SBRcoffee wrote:
kennykill wrote:
Would it not be good practice to test all Kona qualifiers on their qualifying raceday (after they've crossed the line), and then again randomly at some point before Kona raceday?

I've no idea of logistics or cost, but I would think once all Kona Qualifiers are known (approx. 2500 athletes), it should be a straight forward exercise in picking random dates and testing all competitors before Kona raceday? Same could be done for 70.3 Worlds too no?

I think that way you know have some confidence they were clean when they qualified, and the so-called "world championships" are clean too.


Think about the cost involved in testing 2500 people. Think about what is required in terms of people and $$ just to test one athlete.

But would the total number to be tested not be divided out between the each country tri federations affiliated to WADA to arrange the testing? How do the other sports test their athletes, especially in sports that have way more participants than triathlon? Or is my thinking too simplistic and fantastical?

Other sports like football, basketball, baseball have crap loads of money. That's how they do it. And they're professional sports. age groupers aren't professional athletes.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [TriTamp] [ In reply to ]
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If cost and organization are the only issues why not use existing agencies such as LabCorp , Quest or others that do employment testing? They are in many cities and could probably provide location services. They already have a volume of services so could probably provide a reasonable cost to service. They could not afford to allow errors, falsification or false reports (although there is that in all testing).
Athletes could be sent a notice to go and provide a sample within a period of time or else it would equate to a refusal of sample. The testing time could be random.
LabCorp sponsor of Ironman? That would speak well for clean racing perhaps.
Not a perfect solution but if the issue is cost and resources to get more testing than this could be a viable option.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [dusty] [ In reply to ]
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Are those labs wada accredited?
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [dusty] [ In reply to ]
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dusty wrote:
If cost and organization are the only issues why not use existing agencies such as LabCorp , Quest or others that do employment testing? They are in many cities and could probably provide location services. They already have a volume of services so could probably provide a reasonable cost to service. They could not afford to allow errors, falsification or false reports (although there is that in all testing).
Athletes could be sent a notice to go and provide a sample within a period of time or else it would equate to a refusal of sample. The testing time could be random.
LabCorp sponsor of Ironman? That would speak well for clean racing perhaps.
Not a perfect solution but if the issue is cost and resources to get more testing than this could be a viable option.

I think cost still would be an issue. And now you're strictly talking outside of race day. Are we talking strictly pros and elite age groupers? Because as a MOPer who will never sniff KQ, I think it's stupid to test me and I'd be annoyed by it. There's no money at stake for me and its just a hobby for me.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [TriTamp] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote]
I think cost still would be an issue. And now you're strictly talking outside of race day. Are we talking strictly pros and elite age groupers? Because as a MOPer who will never sniff KQ, I think it's stupid to test me and I'd be annoyed by it. There's no money at stake for me and its just a hobby for me.[/quote]
It might be a hobby but cheating is still cheating. I think they need to nail down the Pro/FOP testing before placing a big emphasis on the rest of the crowd though.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [ffmedic84] [ In reply to ]
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ffmedic84 wrote:

I think cost still would be an issue. And now you're strictly talking outside of race day. Are we talking strictly pros and elite age groupers? Because as a MOPer who will never sniff KQ, I think it's stupid to test me and I'd be annoyed by it. There's no money at stake for me and its just a hobby for me.[/quote]
It might be a hobby but cheating is still cheating. I think they need to nail down the Pro/FOP testing before placing a big emphasis on the rest of the crowd though.[/quote]
True. But it's a tricky balance when you talk about adding costs to an already expensive sport and the inconvenience of drug testing. And then you've got MOPers and BOPers who make up a big percentage of racers. I can't imagine somebody just aiming to finish is going to be happy about additional costs for drug testing and having to go to Labcorp for drug testing. WTC doesn't want to start losing this people. In a perfect world, a drug test would be a super quick and inexpensive thing. I think for a hobby sport, focusing on the pros and FOPers is the only way to go at this point. It gets really tricky after that.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [kennykill] [ In reply to ]
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I feel, if you qualify for kona (or 70.3 worlds) at a race a drug test is part of the acceptance of your spot. When you accept, you are drug tested on the spot. This would apply to roll down slots. Then, random tests of this pool up until October

"injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" MLK
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [Shakeandbake] [ In reply to ]
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Shakeandbake wrote:
I feel, if you qualify for kona (or 70.3 worlds) at a race a drug test is part of the acceptance of your spot. When you accept, you are drug tested on the spot. This would apply to roll down slots. Then, random tests of this pool up until October

Good idea in theory, but executing it would be difficult without adding tremendous expense. You would need several WADA certified doping control officers - all of whom in my understanding must be employed by USADA to make the test legit - as well as a number of phlebotomist on hand at every race. On weekends with multiple races (like last weekend with Kona/Louisville) you'd probably need every WADA certified doping control officer in the country and then some.

Further, the time it would take to do it in that fashion would be tremendous. I'm assuming you've been to an Ironman awards ceremony/roll down? If so, you know the ceremony itself already takes hours if you account for all the pomp and circumstance, signing of forms and processing payment for the KQs. Throw in 40-75 WADA protocol drug tests, and the KQs would be there all day ... and probably night as well.

Like others before have said, I think USADA and WTC are on the right track and getting the most 'bang for their buck' by performing random (or upon credible info) testing of pros the FOP age groupers. Could they do more? Sure, but we would all bear the financial burden of those tests through increased USAT fees, race fees, etc... Plain and simple, there is no easy (or cost effective) solution.

As for the LabCorp. or Quest suggestion - also good in theory but there are only two WADA certified labs in the U.S. One at UCLA and the other in Utah. Also, Quest - through its Blueprint for Athletes division/service - is the title sponsor of Ironman Boulder.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [tigerblood] [ In reply to ]
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There needs to be a culture whereby athletes believe that WTC/national agencies a) have credibility... and b) they will actively pursue those placed under suspicion by well-evidenced 'tip-offs'. I don't want to say 'culture of fear' but something like that.

As others have said, anything else is too costly with this market/audience.

29 years and counting
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [tigerblood] [ In reply to ]
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tigerblood wrote:
Shakeandbake wrote:
I feel, if you qualify for kona (or 70.3 worlds) at a race a drug test is part of the acceptance of your spot. When you accept, you are drug tested on the spot. This would apply to roll down slots. Then, random tests of this pool up until October


Good idea in theory, but executing it would be difficult without adding tremendous expense. You would need several WADA certified doping control officers - all of whom in my understanding must be employed by USADA to make the test legit - as well as a number of phlebotomist on hand at every race. On weekends with multiple races (like last weekend with Kona/Louisville) you'd probably need every WADA certified doping control officer in the country and then some.

Further, the time it would take to do it in that fashion would be tremendous. I'm assuming you've been to an Ironman awards ceremony/roll down? If so, you know the ceremony itself already takes hours if you account for all the pomp and circumstance, signing of forms and processing payment for the KQs. Throw in 40-75 WADA protocol drug tests, and the KQs would be there all day ... and probably night as well.

Like others before have said, I think USADA and WTC are on the right track and getting the most 'bang for their buck' by performing random (or upon credible info) testing of pros the FOP age groupers. Could they do more? Sure, but we would all bear the financial burden of those tests through increased USAT fees, race fees, etc... Plain and simple, there is no easy (or cost effective) solution.

As for the LabCorp. or Quest suggestion - also good in theory but there are only two WADA certified labs in the U.S. One at UCLA and the other in Utah. Also, Quest - through its Blueprint for Athletes division/service - is the title sponsor of Ironman Boulder.
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I think the random testing against the pros and FOP age groupers is their only option both because of costs and the concern about alienating MOPers and more specifically BOPers. Maybe I'm wrong about that but I doubt somebody aiming for just beat the cutoff of get in at 14-16 hours for an IM is going to be all that happy about additional costs and more importantly the inconvenience of testing. People can argue about the sanctity of the sport as the reason but I'm pretty sure most of those no where close to the podium who see this sport as a hobby aren't going to be all that pleased about being drug tested. Maybe WTC could do a survey and prove me wrong but I suspect I am not. I do this sport because it's fun and it keeps me active and fit. As a MOPer, I would not be too pleased about being drug tested.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [TriTamp] [ In reply to ]
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TriTamp wrote:


As a MOPer, I would not be too pleased about being drug tested.


Really? As a MOP racer, trying to get to the front of the race, it is my dream to be relevant enough to be tested. If drug testing showed up at my house or took me aside at a race I would take that as a sign that I finally 'made it'. That would be something worthy of posting to a twitter feed ;-)

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [wannabefaster] [ In reply to ]
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wannabefaster wrote:
TriTamp wrote:


As a MOPer, I would not be too pleased about being drug tested.



Really? As a MOP racer, trying to get to the front of the race, it is my dream to be relevant enough to be tested. If drug testing showed up at my house or took me aside at a race I would take that as a sign that I finally 'made it'. That would be something worthy of posting to a twitter feed ;-)

haha. you'd be offering blood, urine, and stool samples. lol
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [TriTamp] [ In reply to ]
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TriTamp wrote:
wannabefaster wrote:
TriTamp wrote:


As a MOPer, I would not be too pleased about being drug tested.



Really? As a MOP racer, trying to get to the front of the race, it is my dream to be relevant enough to be tested. If drug testing showed up at my house or took me aside at a race I would take that as a sign that I finally 'made it'. That would be something worthy of posting to a twitter feed ;-)


I was more thinking about testing World Championship AG qualifiers first because they're supposedly the top events in our sport. I've no idea how the rest of the non-WC qualifiers would/if be tested, but I think starting with a zero tolerance for the WC events would be a good start point.
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [trail] [ In reply to ]
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What annoys me about it is two fold. Check the quarterly reports, they just test whatever is closest to them. In triathlon specifically the Colorado based athletes have higher numbers than most other located athletes. That's the lack of a budget talking right there. Which is my second annoyance. Simply move to some far off place that's expensive to get to and it's likely you won't be tested as much.

So lacking a tip... getting tested is few and far between.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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USADA is transparent.

WTC hides everything.

I just _love_ the naivete of the situation that has us catching age groupers every now and again but close to zero pros per year. Uh-hunh. Sure. Riiiiight.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Kona Age Grouper Refused Anti-Doping Test [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
To the thread: part of the problem is a lack of transparency of how often tests are currently carried out which makes it difficult to gauge how well, or not, WTC is doing on this issue.

We can't get transparency on slot allocation, I don't think they are in a hurry to show it here either. For Profit business, not a sports federation, they behave accordingly, we (myself very much included) are the dummies that expect more from WTC.

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