Here is the original thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...5BDan.B.%5D_P6026024

Maurice

That is better information, thank you. Based on that, I support the need to rally and see if Dan can get some answers quickly.

I don't know if it's worthy of litigation at this point though, unless the race comes and goes and he wasn't able to race and wasn't provided compensation for any nonrefundable expenses.

For pupose of an Internet discussion I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a wheelchair athlete that he verified that it had a wheelchair division.

I appreciate that and would normally feel comfortable agreeing, but Dan didn't start this thread, antonbp did. I don't know that person or their intent or credibility.

Another commentator was able to point to a thread that Dan himself created and put legitimacy into this discussion for me. Until I saw the thread that Dan started, I was a bit skeptical.

This is the first thing I thought of when reading what the OP posted.

I work for a company that produces a medium-sized marathon. We're around the 35th-40th largest in the US each year. We started in 1989, had our first pushrim wheelchair racer in 1991 and our first handcycle racer in 2003. Back in summer 2005 our Board of Directors made a policy that only pushrim chairs would be allowed in the race due to a handcycle crash in our 2005 race. Since handcycle racers made up the bulk of our wheelchair division (7 of the 8 racers in 2005) this change in policy was not popular with the wheelchair racer crowd. After many meetings and a threatened ADA lawsuit, which our legal council advised us that we would likely lose, our BoD reversed their position. We made a few (easy) changes to our course setup and I'm proud to report that we now draw about 20 wheelchair racers each year-mostly handcycles but occasionally a few pushrim chairs. The main reason our legal council gave the advice they did was that our race takes place on public roads. You want to use public spaces, you need to meet ADA standards.

A lot of races have come to us for advice, usually on how to "keep handcycles out". Our position is why not embrace them, do everything you reasonably can to give them a good race experience. Some say the course isn't safe, I say then you better make the course safe (for everybody!!!). Some say they go too fast or too slow, I say figure out your timelines and produce the race the way you need to get the job done.

What the? Ironman is supposed to be hard. If a course is all hills, and is tough, it's a tougher and better challenge to give yourself. You feel a greater sense of accomplishment from finishing a tough course. (hell, the RD at Rotorua 1/2 IM finds insane ways to make his course harder and harder every year, and entries keep growing and growing!)

All courses should be wheelchair accessible. It should be up to the athlete to decide if it's within their abilities to complete and compete. If a wheelchair athlete enters the course, and fails to finish because they aren't good enough to finish, it's the same as if anyone else enters and fails to finish.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I think the point was that it's not always technically possible to have a course that is friendly towards a vehicle on wheels. Imagine a race where the run course goes over a sandy trail, or something bumps / steps that would be totally fine for a runner but can't be done with a wheelchair. It doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with being hard or not.

I did IMMT this weekend, and the run course would technically not be much of a problem for a wheelchair athlete but it could be a disaster if wheelchair athletes would be on the narrow out-and-back bike trail we ran on. In Maryland the run course goes over the grass field at Great Marsh Point as well as some section on loose rock - neither of which are suitable for wheelchairs.

Oh, I get that. But to A) have it open to wheelchair athletes at the beginning B) have the 1/2 IM course still open to wheelchairs (and presumably on the same course) and C) not give the guy a reason. Well that just sucks.

As far as I'm aware, the really tough Rotorua 1/2 IM that is freakin hilly on the bike and mostly single track on the run, is open to anyone that wants. I don't think anyone has done it in a wheelchair, but they aren't specifically excluded. I from my perspective, if I say some hardass wheelchair athlete on the run course, I'd certainly move over to let them pass. I wouldn't suggest they should be barred from racing.

At the end of the day, WTC has an over supply of customers. They can piss people off in all sorts of ways and they'll still be over subscribed. There is no incentive for them to do anything to that costs them money, and that includes being wheelchair friendly. Disappointing, but that's how business works. Only when enough of us vote with our wallets, will they start doing the right thing.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

The run courses are not the same, and Eagleman does not have a run course that goes across the park on the grass. I just checked the Eagleman course on the website vs my garmin file from IMMD. So, there's a difference there and what goes for Eagleman isn't necessarily possible for IMMD. So your B) reason is not valid.

As to not providing a reason, did they simply not respond or what did they say? Also did the athlete get a refund?

So A) & C) still apply? :-)

From the post, it appears they replied but gave no reason. I can't answer about the refund but given that it's WTC..........

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I can't tell if A) applied since we don't have anything to go off besides the OP's word. As to C), we don't know for sure if WTC responded and if so what they said. The different times I've reached out to WTC they have always been very responsive so I don't want to jump into conclusions here. That said, as mentioned before I can definitely understand why the MD course doesn't work for wheelchairs based on having done the race myself...

At this point, we can only go on what the OP posted. And WTC's less than awesome reputation, and my own average experiences with them.

Still, regardless of the course, it should be the athletes decision if the feel able to compete.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Open letter to Ironman on Slowtwitch/Twitter/Facebook/Instagram.

That's really not up to you to decide. It's up to the athlete to decide if a course matches his/her abilities. And you're a bit behind the time when it comes to what can/cannot be done in a wheelchair.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

If you let athletes decide what they can and can not do, you'll see there are always going to be people making bad decisions. Read the topic on IMMT bike crashes, for example. The race director or organizer should always have a first say in what seems like a good idea and what not.

I created the thread because one of my athletes is friends with Dan. The information I posted was sent to me. My intent was to see if there was anyone on Slowtwitch who might be able to help.

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Bruce
ALBOPADS XTERRAWETSUITS NEWTON OAKLEY FIZIK GARMIN ROTOR COMPUTRAINER QUARQ HONEYSTINGER

As a wheelchair paratriathlete this is bullshit!

Every race should be open, yes some races would be very hard to do in a race chair and I have done some but the discrimination is evident!

I'm doing challenge Penticton tomorrow and the run course is not wheelchair friendly but guess what they are working with me, we have a solution that works for everyone and it was so easy but required an open mind!!!

I hope they pull their heads out of their ass and figure it out, laziness is a shitty excuse!

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My Blog of Me

You are exactly right that there will athletes who will make bad decisions in every race. All we are asking is that handcycle athletes be given that same opportunity to make good decisions just like every other athlete. People crash, ride to fast, draft, take corners to tight, and increase the danger to others around them during all races but when it comes to handcycle athletes Ironman does not allow us the same right given to all other athletes. Many athletes make bad decisions before even arriving to the starting line and DNF. Some make bad decisions during the race and don't hydrate or take in nutrition properly putting themselves and others in danger but Ironman still allows 2500 athletes to make bad decisions, as long as they aren't handcycle athletes.

Ironman Florida swim goes over a sandy beach and is ont only listed a handcycle friendly race but it's one they suggested Dan and I switch to. Either they let handlers tote you across the sand to the waters edge for your second swim loop or they watch you do the crawl.

What, in your opinion, makes the Ironman Maryland course not wheelchair friendly? I haven't done it and do not have a lot of info on it but I know there are a lot of things that have been deemed not wheelchair friendly and were conquered by wheelchair athletes. Not wheelchair friendly does not mean wheelchair impossible. When the first handcycle athletes attempted Kona they said the same thing and yet dozens of handcycle athletes have completed it and many other Ironman triathlons. The times of the best handcycle athletes are quickly closing in on the times of the pro athletes. Not friendly? Maybe, but certainly not impossible.

I am not an expert in what is 'wheelchair friendly' and what is easy to modify to make it friendlier, but the course in Maryland has two separate transition areas on grass fields and you need to cross it a few times. Without there being a path or trail it's definitely not straight forward to cross it especially should it rain.

Is there no possibility of setting up a transition in the same vicinity for the those that need accessibility. At one of our local races, transition is on grass with one of them up a super duper steep hill where the wheels kind of sink into the soft grass. We just have volunteers assisting. The finish chute is also up the same hill and on grass. Disabled athletes get it done. We don't have to be so patronizing thinking about what will not be possible for them. The reason they are doing triathlon and IM's because they are not going to let their physical limitations stop their mind and souls from achieving the extra ordinary. At the end of the day, doing an IM is mainly a mental exercise. We're all fit on race day and have varying degrees of tools. All of us have lesser tools than Frodo or Ryf. It's mental for everyone. Give these athletes a chance and they will figure out how to make it to the finish line. Where it is really really hard and physically not possible with their equipment, they will ask for some help or modification. But let's not decide for them what they are no not capable of doing.

The entire premise of the founders of IM in Oahu was trying some crazy shit that no one would believe is impossible. So let the human spirit prevail and let these guys show us what they can do....don't shut them out because 'we know better' what is safe for them or not.

I have done IM Tremblant 3x and 70.3 5x. Why do you say the out and back on the run course would be a disaster? Are able bodied athletes so uncoordinated that we can't make room for someone in a wheel chair? There is ! single step on the run course that would require a small ramp....other than that, nothing would need to be done. If able bodied athletes can make room for the mountain bike in front of the lead runners, they can make way for a mountain bike leading in front of the wheelchair athletes. It would be dead simple. You're making excuses along the lines of "you can race with able bodied people as long as we don't have to change our behavior". What you are forgetting is that "WE" are always changing our behavior to run around or bike around other able bodied athletes. That's what you do in a race. The disabled athlete is just using different looking equipment, but that's it. It's almost like saying, 'well, we probably don't want black guys playing in this baseball league because they look different and it would not work out"...well until Jackie Robinson came along to my hometown of Montreal. I know I am making it sound extreme, but its basically in the same category.

Grass isn't a problem for most wheelchair athletes unless it went more than 1/2 mile. Not ideal but doable and if handlers were allowed would be no problem at all.

You are exactly right. Most will find a way to get it done or turn themselves inside out trying.