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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I'd like to see a stat regarding your quote on the "countries that are less puritanical about sex have better statistics"

Have any references?
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [ErnieK] [ In reply to ]
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Have any references?
__________________

Nope, and I don't feel like looking them up. I learned it in a college sociology class and have had it reinforced many many times since then. Specifically the teen pregnancy rate is much higher in the states than it is in Europe.

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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [ErnieK] [ In reply to ]
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Teenage birth rates in selected countries (2002): [9] Country Teenage birth rate
per 1000 women 15-19 South Korea 3 Netherlands 5 Tunisia 7 Australia 16 United Kingdom 20 Russia 30 United States 53 Indonesia 55 South Africa 66 Brazil 73 Bangladesh 117 Niger 233Okay, I spent a minute looking it up. Here's a quick one:

The teenage birth rate in United States is the highest in the developed world, and the teenage abortion rate is also high.[4] However, the teenage pregnancy rate has been decreasing significantly in recent years, particularly since the early 1990s. This decline has manifested across all racial groups, although teenagers of African-American and Hispanic descent retain a higher rate, in comparison to that of European-Americans and Asian-Americans. The Guttmacher Institute attributed about 25% of the decline to abstinence and 75% to the effective use of contraceptives. [12]The Canadian teenage birth has also trended towards a steady decline for both younger (15-17) and older (18-19) teens in the period between 1992-2002.


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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A question of perspective, do you have a different body consciousness as a result of lifetime swimming than your non-swimmer friends?

I ask because I think people who did puberty in lycra have a different perspective on body image. That is, most really seem to have internalized the idea that bodies are just bodies. What matters is who you are or what you do.

I say this because most of the people I grew up with would have an initial reaction of "A million bucks? Hell, yeah." Upon reflection, most would not have done it, but not because of body issues. In that sense alone, are her pictures not a positive influence?
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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In that sense alone, are her pictures not a positive influence?

They would be if they influenced ordinary people to think they way people who spent their adolescence in lycra do about their bodies. But they won't, obviously and of course, and if they did, Playboy would be out of business.










"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I am aware of the teen pregnancy statistics for the US, I referenced them in an earlier post, but I don't see any reference to how puritanical the US is compared to the other countries listed below. That was the aspect that I was asking. FWIW, I don't think the US is more puritanical than the other countries, if you go by the standard definition of the word.
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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They would be if they influenced ordinary people to think they way people who spent their adolescence in lycra do about their bodies. But they won't, obviously and of course, and if they did, Playboy would be out of business.

True enough, but I was thinking that those most likely to be influenced are teenage swimmer chicks. The group most likely to identify with the swimmer chick in Playboy.
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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Not directed at you necessarily, I can't remember who is arguing what at this point, but where is the outrage over the Lovato thread?? Where was the outrage when Lance posed nude?

If Amanda Beard's nude photos appeared in Vanity Fair (UK version, probably) rather than Playboy, would this even be an issue?

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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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There probably is to some degree. I mean I can definitely appreciate a nice looking minimally clothed guy, but there is more of an attitude that bodies are just bodies. When I was swimming from age 13-21, it was the era of tiny speedos for the guys, so I grew up with the assumption that it wasn't just a wee bit of lycra that did or did not determine whether or not you were trying to look sexy.

That, and no matter how hot the guy you're sharing a lane is when you're 17, when the coach is trying to drown you, it's hard to think of much else other than making the sendoff for next damn hundred.

I can remember talking with a runner friend in college about how the sports we chose have probably shaped what we came to see as attractiveness in men. She claimed that the straight female runners would go for the swimmer instead of the football player almost every time because the football player just looked bulky and awkward, and the lean muscle of the swim guy had come to seem attractive and normal.
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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was the era of tiny speedos for the guys

You mean my size 24 Papersuit isn't acceptable anymore? (thats a men's papersuit).

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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [More is MORE] [ In reply to ]
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Probably not, since those things tended to last for three meets tops before going totally see-through.

I can remember getting up on the blocks in one, swimming my race, and then putting on a suit over the paper suit when I went to warm down when I was trying to get one more meet out of one that was starting to go a little thin.
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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Probably not, since those things tended to last for three meets tops before going totally see-through.

Not that it mattered when you wore one that was 4 sizes too small!! You remembered to get it wet before diving in, right?

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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [oldandmean] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still trying to figure out why looking at a naked human body is taboo at any age in America. Why American's immediately equate nakedness with sex is nothing short of bizarre.

Sex is just one act that a naked human body can engage in. It's equivalent to looking at a field of grain and complaining that it's promoting alcoholism because (heaven forbid) someone might make a can of beer out of some if it. Passing that same screwed up view of the human body is the absolute WORST thing you can pass on to kids. And even if the naked image IS clearly sexual in nature, as Amanda Beard's is, what on Earth is the rational reason for shielding children from sex??? I don't know about girls, but boys have some strong sexual urges as early as age 6 (that's based on my own memories), yet we "shield" or "protect" children from the information they need to understand those strong feelings. That is just ridiculous people. Explaining to children about sexuality in language they understand leads to a healthy view of sex and the human body. Those of you shielding even young children from sex are severely misguided. No, you don't pop a porn video in after an episode of Barney, but to think you are doing them a favor by introducing as little info about sex as you can get away with is horrible parenting.

The real problem that no one talks about is that all this talk about the evils of sex and nakedness (which aren't the same thing, but get lumped together) is predominantly religious-based. Misinterpretations of the bible. Luckily there are more and more people (us evil fornicators) who are using their brains rather than passed down doctrine to navigate this issue. For those of you using the Bible as your sole guide to parenting sex issues, I will pray for you and your children. You need it.
Great post.

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"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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The porn industry isn't a multi billion dollar industry by accident.

No, it's not. You think that's a justification of something?

"Calling out LARRY FLYNT, are you there please Larry ? " :)

"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn
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Re: Vitus, avert your eyes!!! [JohnA] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, fine, that however has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I frankly have no problem with Playboy, nor pretty much any individual "sexualisation". My issue arises because it has become so prevelant that it's not a single painting or magazine but an exploited and pushed expectation at a younger and younger age. IOW this particular situation is not the problem in my eyes, merely a symptom. Destroying Playboy or banning pornography will do nothing to change the squewed social mentality that is begining to believe that 12 year olds should dress, act and be involved in activities that should be left to a more mature adult.

~Matt
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Re: Vitus, avert your eyes!!! [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, I agree with you here - the pendulum is swinging to a new extreme, but I think pinning it on "offensive" content, while historically popular, is as naive now as it was 140 years ago.

As far as dealing with it, well, as a parent of a soon to be teenage girl, I hope and pray that my wife, my family and I have instilled the values in her that will keep her from dressing like Lindsey Lohan, flashing her crotch and boobs like Brittany Spears, or blowing some guy on night vision video like Paris Hilton. Shielding her from this behavior is impossible, but educating her isn't.
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Re: Vitus, avert your eyes!!! [JohnA] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, I agree with you here - the pendulum is swinging to a new extreme, but I think pinning it on "offensive" content, while historically popular, is as naive now as it was 140 years ago.

Historically popular but never so historically widespread. In 1863 you had A picture or two that was only present via a walk to the local museum. Today you have TV, Magazines, Computers, music and so forth. There is little doubt that constant bombardment has an effect. One has to look no further than advertising statistics to prove that.

I agree 100% that communication and education on the side of the parents is a huge step, but simply setting a few filters and limiting the potential constant exposure is also advantageous. Basically part of the education and installation of your beliefs and values is simply saying "Sorry that is not accepted in my house" or "Let's sit and talk about this for an hour for every hour of it you watch on TV" or something that counter balances the constant "Fantasy sexual" barrage.

Again my issue is not with the "Extreme behavior" as much as the "Extreme exposure".

~Matt

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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [ErnieK] [ In reply to ]
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I am aware of the teen pregnancy statistics for the US, I referenced them in an earlier post, but I don't see any reference to how puritanical the US is compared to the other countries listed below. That was the aspect that I was asking. FWIW, I don't think the US is more puritanical than the other countries, if you go by the standard definition of the word.
______________________________________

On the whole, you may may be correct. However, (and I don't have the stats....find them if you wish) the United States has a larger population that considers itself religious and has a very strong religious political influence that pushes abstinence only education (instead of safe sex).....at least as compared to the bulk of Europe. We've also been historically more "uptight" about nudity and sex when compared to the European countries.

However one can easily argue that the high teen pregnancy rate has more to do with socioeconomic factors and our public education system. Either way, I don't think it's because accomplished athletes pose naked in adult magazines ; ^ )

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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but who's responsibility is it to raise your children, yours or Amanda Beard's? And stop with the role model stuff, I highly doubt Amanda Beard got into competitive swimming to become a role model for anyone, it's not her responsibility. Hell, ask 100 young girls who Amanda Beard is and you'll get an "I don't know" from 95% of them, but ask them who Paris Hilton is and you'll surely get a 100% positive response. Sorry, I think this whole thing is ridiculous.
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [imatoad] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but who's responsibility is it to raise your children, yours or Amanda Beard's? And stop with the role model stuff, I highly doubt Amanda Beard got into competitive swimming to become a role model for anyone, it's not her responsibility. Hell, ask 100 young girls who Amanda Beard is and you'll get an "I don't know" from 95% of them, but ask them who Paris Hilton is and you'll surely get a 100% positive response. Sorry, I think this whole thing is ridiculous.

Absolutely agree that it is the parent's job to raise their kids. I do not, however, agree with your statement that out of 100 young girls, 95 would not know Amanda Beard.

This whole debate got me curious, so, I have been asking friends' daughters and some of my family with young girls about their impression of this. First, almost every one of them knew who Amanda Beard was and all but 1 or 2 admitted that she is the only female swimmer then knew.

Second, here was the general impression -- for some random hottie posing for Playboy, no big deal. Same for a celeb known more for her looks. That is their choice, that's what they do, whatever, they don't care.

However, the vast majority were disappointed to see Amanda Beard do it. They thought she was "lowering" herself and "selling out." Some thought less of her. Some, I got the impression, did see it as sending a message that Amanda could not "make it" on her talent, so, she went topless.

This is very unscientific, but, interesting none the less. I would say, in total, I spoke with 8-10 people. Not a large sample, but, interesting.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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They thought she was "lowering" herself and "selling out."
_________________________________

I always love it when people talk about someone else, "selling out." "How dare someone make money in a manner that they find acceptable!" I often wonder what "rules" I'll have to live by if I ever achieve my goal of becoming inhumanly fast.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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They thought she was "lowering" herself and "selling out."
_________________________________

I always love it when people talk about someone else, "selling out." "How dare someone make money in a manner that they find acceptable!" I often wonder what "rules" I'll have to live by if I ever achieve my goal of becoming inhumanly fast.
I agree. As I keep saying, I have no problem with her decision. However, I do find it interesting watching how this affects her popularity/reputation (for better or worse).

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Teenage birth rates in selected countries (2002): [9] Country Teenage birth rate
per 1000 women 15-19 South Korea 3 Netherlands 5 Tunisia 7 Australia 16 United Kingdom 20 Russia 30 United States 53 Indonesia 55 South Africa 66 Brazil 73 Bangladesh 117 Niger 233Okay, I spent a minute looking it up. Here's a quick one:

The teenage birth rate in United States is the highest in the developed world, and the teenage abortion rate is also high.[4] However, the teenage pregnancy rate has been decreasing significantly in recent years, particularly since the early 1990s. This decline has manifested across all racial groups, although teenagers of African-American and Hispanic descent retain a higher rate, in comparison to that of European-Americans and Asian-Americans. The Guttmacher Institute attributed about 25% of the decline to abstinence and 75% to the effective use of contraceptives. [12]The Canadian teenage birth has also trended towards a steady decline for both younger (15-17) and older (18-19) teens in the period between 1992-2002.


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy
The accuracy of widipedia varies a great deal depending upon the topic, but assuming that it's correct, it would not be surprising that the teenage birth rate is higher in the US than the rest of the "developed" world because the birth rate of most of the "developed" world is not high enough to sustain the population. A birth rate of less than 2 per couple, like in most of western Europe, is hardly a goal to aspire to.
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Re: Vitus, avert your eyes!!! [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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My issue arises because it has become so prevelant that it's not a single painting or magazine but an exploited and pushed expectation at a younger and younger age.
I entirely agree with this point. However, I don't directly relate that point to a hottie adult swimmer posing nude in an adult magazine. To me, those are separate issues.
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Re: Interesting article on Amanda Beard/female athletes posing nude. [CTL] [ In reply to ]
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The accuracy of widipedia varies a great deal depending upon the topic, but assuming that it's correct, it would not be surprising that the teenage birth rate is higher in the US than the rest of the "developed" world because the birth rate of most of the "developed" world is not high enough to sustain the population. A birth rate of less than 2 per couple, like in most of western Europe, is hardly a goal to aspire to.
________________________

I see your point and would like to respond on two accounts.

1) I don't think you can consider a "high teen pregnancy rate" as being positive for a growing society. A vast majority of these are unplanned pregnanies. It is, IMO, a completely different issue. I don't think American teens are getting pregnant because they wany large families and think that getting started before they graduate high school is the best way to do it.

2) Why is a birth rate of less than 2 per couple bad, particularly in an age where the world's human population is putting such great stress on our natural resources?

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