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Icarus / doping doc review
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Anyone else catch this on Netflix? Watching now.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [fat] [ In reply to ]
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fat wrote:
Anyone else catch this on Netflix? Watching now.

Yes, WOW.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [fat] [ In reply to ]
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Watched it a few days ago.. SO good.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [clogs] [ In reply to ]
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Yup brilliant.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [fat] [ In reply to ]
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Watched it, Monday.

I actually have very little faith in any endurance sport being "fair". If you have the $$, you can beat the sytem.

Dude's FTP went up 99 W in a VERY short time. I don't know what is "real" and what isn't.

The Russian story just further adds to the doubts.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
Watched it, Monday.

I actually have very little faith in any endurance sport being "fair". If you have the $$, you can beat the sytem.

Dude's FTP went up 99 W in a VERY short time. I don't know what is "real" and what isn't.

The Russian story just further adds to the doubts.


Yes, that's what I heard. Sounded like ftp went from 250 to 350 watts, while taking a drug protocol that supposedly wouldn't test positive?!?

Wowza... I guess when your protocol is determined by the head of a WADA lab, you know what works. I also guess the Doctors that have the same knowledge get big money.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
Watched it, Monday.

I actually have very little faith in any endurance sport being "fair". If you have the $$, you can beat the sytem.

Dude's FTP went up 99 W in a VERY short time. I don't know what is "real" and what isn't.

The Russian story just further adds to the doubts.

I think the whole amateur doping story wasn't very well described and I wasn't exactly sure what he was trying to accomplish. Was he trying to show how good the drugs are or show how a amateur could beat a doping controls or both?

I also thought it was very odd he was unhappy with the race performance but he should be able to clearly show a better performance from the power numbers. A 100w FTP would show up easy in a year-year power comparison.

Otherwise the film was excellent.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [Pantelones] [ In reply to ]
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He was trying to show how easy it is to beat the doping controls. Wasn't clear whether he actually went better though as he had mechanical issues in the race. Took a years worth of dope but forgot to charge his bike, doh !
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [Blacky] [ In reply to ]
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I enjoyed the first half more than the second. It was interesting to hear how doping affected him, I agree that a 100w FTP increase without a better race performance sounds odd though. I would like to think that if my FTP went up by 100w, I'd be pro.

The 2nd half fell into the normal 'Russia bad' everyone else good theme. The doping investigations of the last few years leave me feeling duped. So Russia has the best state sponsored doping regime of all time, but are average. USA, China, Kenya, Jamaica and Great Britain win everything, but are not doping, or very little doping is going on there, and certainly unbeknownst to the state....
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [fat] [ In reply to ]
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Just going to cue it up.

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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
Watched it, Monday.

I actually have very little faith in any endurance sport being "fair". If you have the $$, you can beat the sytem.

Dude's FTP went up 99 W in a VERY short time. I don't know what is "real" and what isn't.

The Russian story just further adds to the doubts.

I found this a bit odd. He also said an increase of 20%
But from 250 (isn't that low for some one that finished 14th in the haute alpes race?) to 350 is 40%
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [NUFCrichard] [ In reply to ]
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NUFCrichard wrote:
The 2nd half fell into the normal 'Russia bad' everyone else good theme. The doping investigations of the last few years leave me feeling duped. So Russia has the best state sponsored doping regime of all time, but are average. USA, China, Kenya, Jamaica and Great Britain win everything, but are not doping, or very little doping is going on there, and certainly unbeknownst to the state....

Agreed but I think the intent was to shed light on Rodchenkov more so than the "Russians". And even other heavies like Mutko. I'm not sure Rodchenkov's story has been told that much, especially considering he's gone into Witness Protection. If it wasn't for his docs WADA and IOC wouldn't have gone down the path they did IMO, he was the Edward Snowden of Athletic Doping, albeit more of a law-breaking "criminal" than Snowden.

thought the movie was incredible. It also highlighted how he totally stumbled upon Rodchenkov as a story while trying to focus on something else entirely. What a twist of fate!
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [NUFCrichard] [ In reply to ]
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NUFCrichard wrote:
I enjoyed the first half more than the second. It was interesting to hear how doping affected him, I agree that a 100w FTP increase without a better race performance sounds odd though. I would like to think that if my FTP went up by 100w, I'd be pro.

The 2nd half fell into the normal 'Russia bad' everyone else good theme. The doping investigations of the last few years leave me feeling duped. So Russia has the best state sponsored doping regime of all time, but are average. USA, China, Kenya, Jamaica and Great Britain win everything, but are not doping, or very little doping is going on there, and certainly unbeknownst to the state....

As did I (bolded).......kind of....lol. The first half will REALLY make you question what is real and what isn't in sports. Doping's efficacy is real (the FTP # was staggering, to me). It's also undetectable. I know guys who doped to play amateur SOFTBALL. Nothing surprises me on the "who would do it" level. Nobody's checking.

If a test emerged, tomorrow, that would allow the governing bodies to check athletes - dating back 5 years - they would not administer it. They don't want to know.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [IvarAlmere] [ In reply to ]
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"But from 250 (isn't that low for some one that finished 14th in the haute alpes race?)"

Exactly what I thought. Very odd.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [vittorio] [ In reply to ]
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indeed,

when did he do the hate alpes, did he have time off after? could have been at somthing like 280ftp+, had some down time and detrained to 250ftp, then with a bit of work come back strong and fast,
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [fat] [ In reply to ]
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I watched it this weekend. Few things that stuck out to me
- Yes, 250 FTP seemed low to place 14th out of a field that size...unless only 13 guys in the field were remotely competitive. I know nothing about how competitive the race actually is, but they made it out to be some really competitive race.
- It reinforced my feelings on loving my mechanical groupos. Phew!
- I found it was an awkward transition between the doping for a year and then going into the Olympics. I mean it seemed logical the flow of events but it was awkward in that the whole racing thing kind of petered out and I don't think they truly quantified for people how much of an impact it was able to make on his training (even if he had a electronic failure in the race). Perhaps they wanted to simplify it for everyone by just saying he had a 20% power increase. Regardless, I don't really think the point they were trying to make came across very well.
- I enjoyed the second half (or 2/3) of the documentary quite a bit.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [Pantelones] [ In reply to ]
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Pantelones wrote:
nc452010 wrote:
Watched it, Monday.

I actually have very little faith in any endurance sport being "fair". If you have the $$, you can beat the sytem.

Dude's FTP went up 99 W in a VERY short time. I don't know what is "real" and what isn't.

The Russian story just further adds to the doubts.


I think the whole amateur doping story wasn't very well described and I wasn't exactly sure what he was trying to accomplish. Was he trying to show how good the drugs are or show how a amateur could beat a doping controls or both?

I also thought it was very odd he was unhappy with the race performance but he should be able to clearly show a better performance from the power numbers. A 100w FTP would show up easy in a year-year power comparison.

Otherwise the film was excellent.

The guy said in an interview a couple of things of interest that didn't show in the movie:

- He had a mechanical, a crash, and a flat in the race; otherwise he would have finished higher
- After the prior year, he said he could barely walk for weeks afterwards. After doping, he said he could have
continued racing for many days. The recovery was stunning.

----------------------------------
"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
I think the whole amateur doping story wasn't very well described and I wasn't exactly sure what he was trying to accomplish. Was he trying to show how good the drugs are or show how a amateur could beat a doping controls or both?

I also thought it was very odd he was unhappy with the race performance but he should be able to clearly show a better performance from the power numbers. A 100w FTP would show up easy in a year-year power comparison.

Otherwise the film was excellent.


The guy said in an interview a couple of things of interest that didn't show in the movie:

- He had a mechanical, a crash, and a flat in the race; otherwise he would have finished higher
- After the prior year, he said he could barely walk for weeks afterwards. After doping, he said he could have
continued racing for many days. The recovery was stunning.[/quote]

Yea ... I wouldn't be happy with my placing either after doing what he did to get there ... however, riding 60k+ on a single speed in the high Alps and still staying in the top 30 is a "VERY" impressive feat. Imagine how far back a pro would fall on a "Queen" stage on a single speed!

People who are trying to say doping doesn't work as advertised are full of crap (several studies out there about the ineffectiveness of EPO and other drugs) ... they do work, and work quite well. If they didn't, people wouldn't risk everything for it.

They also stated a 20% improvement in FTP ... though, they stated from 250 to 350 watt improvement ... not sure which one was accurate, though I'm guessing the 20% is more accurate and his initial 250 watt FTP was low given his 14th place finish in the first Haute race he did.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [Blacky] [ In reply to ]
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Blacky wrote:
He was trying to show how easy it is to beat the doping controls. Wasn't clear whether he actually went better though as he had mechanical issues in the race. Took a years worth of dope but forgot to charge his bike, doh !


Doubt it. I think he just has tons of cash, tons of time, and needed an excuse to dope to the gills. Since you can monetize pretty much anything, there you go! Let's make a movie.
It was interesting and pathetic at the same time.

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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [fat] [ In reply to ]
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The movie never circles back around to how the guy was not going to test positive and how others, like Lance, beat the system. It explains how the Russians beat the system but that had to do more with tampering with vials and an inside job at the Russian lab during Sochi, which this guy and Lance wouldn’t have been able to do. And, does this guy self-impose a no racing ban on himself until he retests his FTP and it is a legit 240-260w?

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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [More Cowbell] [ In reply to ]
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More Cowbell wrote:
The movie never circles back around to how the guy was not going to test positive and how others, like Lance, beat the system. It explains how the Russians beat the system but that had to do more with tampering with vials and an inside job at the Russian lab during Sochi, which this guy and Lance wouldn’t have been able to do. And, does this guy self-impose a no racing ban on himself until he retests his FTP and it is a legit 240-260w?

--

Watched this AM on the trainer. My impression when watching was that it didn't circle back because the story morphed into something he wasn't really expecting it to when he began filming. Could be wrong, but I got the feeling the whole story about Sochi/prior Olympics/RUSADA's involvement/etc wasn't what was intended when he started, but he rolled with what was going on.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [Blacky] [ In reply to ]
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+1
Totally agree. What was his point in going through the doping protocol? If he knew the race wasn't going to be tested, then it wasn't to prove that the tests can be fooled (the entire peleton proved that). If anything, i think it proved one of Armstrong's points: everyone doped and I'm still the best. That is, you can dope but you have to have the gene and the work ethic to be the best in the world.

I also think the director and the film let the Haute Route !! result slip away too easily.and evolve into the Russian drama. Maybe if he'd placed higher (and the mechanical had little to do with his result), the personal doping portion would have been extended.

Captivating documentary, though.
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [pvolb] [ In reply to ]
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What was really interesting to me was that the head of the Russian WADA lab seemed more than willing to risk everything to help him basically beat drug testing at a low stakes athletic event.

Like it was just another day at the office, no big deal.
Last edited by: Runguy: Aug 10, 17 13:32
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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [pvolb] [ In reply to ]
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pvolb wrote:
More Cowbell wrote:
The movie never circles back around to how the guy was not going to test positive and how others, like Lance, beat the system. It explains how the Russians beat the system but that had to do more with tampering with vials and an inside job at the Russian lab during Sochi, which this guy and Lance wouldn’t have been able to do. And, does this guy self-impose a no racing ban on himself until he retests his FTP and it is a legit 240-260w?

--


Watched this AM on the trainer. My impression when watching was that it didn't circle back because the story morphed into something he wasn't really expecting it to when he began filming. Could be wrong, but I got the feeling the whole story about Sochi/prior Olympics/RUSADA's involvement/etc wasn't what was intended when he started, but he rolled with what was going on.

That's exactly what the producer said in an interview I heard.

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Re: Icarus / doping doc review [vittorio] [ In reply to ]
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vittorio wrote:
"But from 250 (isn't that low for some one that finished 14th in the haute alpes race?)"

Exactly what I thought. Very odd.

Depends on how light they are...



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