the official theme song of the thread.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/...art=Babylon&tt=b

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

No pacing happened...the Gorilla is not capable of a 6:42 (Sorry DM)

More slippery. How does a referee determine if someone is subordinating his/her race? Sure, in some cases it might be obvious - a pro at MOP AG speed in sync with someone for an extended period. But what if that pro is racing for some reason other than competition? Dialing in nutrition? Testing a new bike fit? Recovering from last week's win? Settling a bet? So now the referees must be able to read intent? Now none of this is germane to Gorilla-gate (or whatever we are calling this) - but it is germane to the overall notion of pacing as a form of outside assistance and the definition of pacing.

Confident identification of subordinated effort for the benefit of others isn't cut and dried. We're back to referee interpretation, which ought to be more informed than this notion of subordinated effort.

"Dan, putting aside the technicalities for a moment, if you were the ref out there, would you make the call to levy the penalty for the infraction?"

depends what really happened. 100 yards? no. at least 200 yards and until they were out of sight? very possibly. but let me ask you this: if you were the athlete, and your buddy ran out of transition with you, step for step, off into the distance, and there were USAT refs at this race, would you let that happen without saying anything to your buddy?

i'm willing to stipulate, absolutely, that the typical gorilla suited pacer is not going to be the proximate cause of his buddy's 4min penalty, and that's a good thing. however, how many times have we seen somebody come on this forum monday morning to explain why he got an unrighteous penalty? and how often does it turn out to be not quite what was advertised? some guy was running alongside me in a gorilla suit and i got a penalty. some fella! just some guy in a gorilla suit! i was just running along...!

so, yeah, maybe could've gone in another direction. but, i've raced a lot of races, all over the world, 30+ years of doing triathlons, and i've been penalized once in all that time, in france, for not having my race number attached in the proper place. and i flat out deserved it. somehow i've managed all these years without getting nicked for unauthorized assistance, and it's not because i don't do USAT races and it's not because i don't have friends.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"More slippery. How does a referee determine if someone is subordinating his/her race?"

asked an answered in many threads. not slippery at all. easy as pie. i can usually call it from here, at my computer, on the other side of the planet, reading race coverage in my peejays.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

From USAT

Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.

From the OP first post

some dude in a full gorilla suit trying to get me pumped up for a 13 mile run

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Styrrell

Dan - I appreciate the debate. Take all of the conjecture and sideline it for a minute... I know for a fact that Mike and the Gorilla had not planned anything in advance. I also know that the act was spontaneous and had no bearing on the race. The entire act could not have lasted more than a minute. Is this really pacing?

"Pacing is clearly against the rules, but the question is was the gorilla actually pacing this guy. To me, the answer is clearly "no," so I consider this a bad call under the rules."

let me clarify. i'm not going to argue that this fellow SHOULD have got a penalty. were it me, were i the official, very likely i would say no penalty, because even if the guy kept it up as far as i could see, i would probably assume that on the first weekend of summer, in georgia, that gorilla suited fellow is probably not going to keep up the pacing long enough to really affect the race. i'm willing to stipulate that the call was at best borderline. it was certainly a defensible call, as in, yes, there's a basis for calling an infraction. but was it a righteous bust? i wasn't there. but i can certainly see the debate.

what bothered me, and why i got involved in the thread at all, is this: first, i don't like it when somebody gets on the forum to complain about his unrighteous bust and misrepresents the facts. based on what we know now, it's still a borderline bullspit call, but a more transparent representation of the facts is less manipulative of our readers, and just in better form.

second, when you publically name, shame and try to humiliate a ref, there's no borderline there. no judgment call there. that's not in the best interests of a sport where we're fighting to keep our venues, fighting to have enough refs, fighting to keep the good RDs interested in putting on races for us. i've been pretty consistent in the 14 years of this site on the monday morning forum tantrums that flush the toilets on the heads of the few people willing to help us have a sport.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Doesn't have to be pacing, just assistance, which of course is vague. But at some point he had to know it was his buddy and a loud get a away would've likely appeased the ref. He knew his buddy had a gorilla suit he knew he had taken it to other events. I live in GA and while we occasionally have people walking around in Gorilla suits its not really that common.

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Styrrell

LOL....in France too....IM France 2010, I did not clip my race belt on properly out of T1 and it fell off a few K later....was not properly "clicked in"...well as it turns out I'm at the 15th kilometer with a train for around 40 guys drafting off me (not sure why you'd draft me cause I don't give off a big draft)...anyway, the official comes up to me on the moto and starts chewing me out for no race number....I'm thinking, "sheesh, I got a peleton of dudes drafting me for 10k and he's hassling me about my number....I got my number all over my bike, helmet and electronically on my chip"....but I shut up and plead forgiveness (thankfully, I speak french reasonably fluently) and tell the ref I have second race belt in T2 for the run. But yes, I was in violation of the rule to the letter, so ready to accept any penalty, just "hoped" that I would not. So I know what you are saying. You gotta suck it up and accept the ref's verdict as an athlete.

But that's not the point. The point in this Monday morning QB gorilla-gate thread is, "was this penalty in this case worth calling ?".

I still feel the ref (or you or I if we were refs in this scenario) could just handle it much more easily by shouting at the gorilla to get the hell off the course. If the gorilla does not listen (hopefully the gorilla does understand English, in which case he's in the highest tier of gorilla IQ), then we have a problem but even then the ref does not know if there is any connection between the gorilla and the runner.

If the gorilla did run off into the distance with his buddy at 6:42 pace for an extended distance (name your extended distance...like any sport there is a judgement call at play be it high sticking in hockey, holding in football, or gorilla pacing in tri), then it would be worth calling. But from what I have read, that's not what shook out. Maybe it did. I can only go by what I have read.

Edit: Cool, I just read one of your responses on your view of the application of the penalty and that you'd probably not have made the call. I do agree that the OP may have not told the full scope of the entire story right out of the gate, so I understand your position on that front in terms of how the forum is used.

Nevertheless, I don't like the concept of any USAT official suggesting that someone might lose their USAT license , EVEN if they don't like the tone of the Monday morning chatter on the internet. It's an extension of the same concept as Stalin sending people to Siberia hell because he does not like what they speak of or how. USAT officials don't/should not go down that path (if they have....I only read that somewhere on this thread). That's pushing powers a bit too far and since they (USAT) have a monopoly in terms of giving out licenses to race tris in the US, we as a community should also call out that behavior by our officials out so that it does not get out of hand.

This is the same ref that gave a penalty for shoes being "over the line" in Transition. My guess is that he was under the shelter in the shade and made the call from 100 yards.

"The entire act could not have lasted more than a minute. Is this really pacing?"

see my post above. based solely on what i'm reading, yes it's pacing, but no, i probably wouldn't have called it. but i also know that pacing has gone on way too much for way too long in triathlon, that this forum has been a prime mover in getting attention focused on it, and now some attention is getting paid to it. and i'm glad for that. so, you know, if you're racing, best if you don't put an official in a position of having to decide whether you're pacing or just kidding around.

but, to me, that's not the point of MY involvement in the thread. i'm going to defend refs against public shaming every time. every time. you can count on that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I agree with you on the public shaming. I don't agree with this call, but nothing the ref did should have opened him up to being dragged through public mud. To be honest, I read the beginning and the end of the thread and didn't see where the ref was called out. I say unrighteous bust, but I think you have righteous indignation.

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http://snappletriteam.com/

"but I shut up and plead forgiveness (thankfully, I speak french reasonably fluently) and tell the ref I have second race belt in T2 for the run."

yeah, well, i was a sponsor of the race. didn't help. guess i should have learned french better.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

One thing has nothing to do with the other. I absolutely hate it whan the assigned areas in transition are small and people have crap all over where you would logically being running in and out. Could've been picky could've been perfectly reasonable.

I wish the refs were really picky on position fouls and drafting. I wish they were picky on pacingie the cases where a non competitor or competitor is runing /biking next to someone most of the way. I don't want everyone to have there own personal aid stations and I dont want to be pushing for the finish and have to dodge families all running together. I struggle with how to pick refs that are strict on what I want them to be and lenient on crap I don't care about.

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Styrrell

I agree - but the days of public immunity are gone. This is a culture of trial by internet. remember NEWBZ? Whenever you have a forum dominated by Type A personalities - there is no where to hide.

>It seems like we are making progress. We are in agreement on the definition of pacing so applying that to this situation where's the pacing?

It appears to have happened coming out of T2. There's apparently a picture of it way up at post #17, and then the OP admits it in post #478.

I have a confession to make....I used a pacer at StGeorge...the Garmin Virtual Pacer

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--------------------------------------------
TEAM F3 Undurance

I've enjoyed this thread.

The call was right. The problem lies in that you say it's all fun and games but you wanted a certain placing. It's either fun and games or a race. If it's fun and games, a penalty because of a gorilla would just be humorous. Like if I ever get a speeding ticket on a bike, I am framing that thing after paying for it.

So, serious, tell the Gorilla to step away, and go for the spot. IF he then keeps running, THEN you have a beef if you get a penalty.

Fun and games, laugh about the penalty and frame it with the pictures.

Based on the pictures, it certainly seem that it was quite a bit of running next to you.

But the real reason I came to post here, can someone provide links for:

• Finman
• T3
• Kona Course Cutter

????

And any other good ones? Thanks! :)

Who beat who?

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Mad%20Gorilla

Ah, you all call it T3, I call her Fl breakup cheating girl lol I have to revisit that thread tonight and go in order, I read bits and pieces.

1. The OP was disingenuous at best in his post

2. Publishing the official's name in public was a douche move

3. The penalty was extremely harsh

4. The OP got negligible benefit from the 'pacing'

5. I doubt we know the full before/during/after story

1. My original post is what I was penalised for. The ref did not know or care who or why he was running next to me.

2. I did NOT publish that information on ST. However his name and e-mail address is clearly written on the penalty sheet for all to see

3. Yep

4. Yep

5. You have heard from my wife, the guilty gorilla, and multiple accounts of witnesses that were at the race. Not to mention I also talked about my conversation with Charlie Crawford. Of course this is all my side of the story, I'd love for the official or Mr Crawford to chime in. This thread has been relatively tame in terms of name calling, if it stays civil it would be really cool to have them pop in.

6. I got 99 problems and a primate ain't 1.

If I am the head official, it's critical that we get all the penalties finalized and delivered to the RD and the head timer as soon as possible after the race concludes. Then, I stick around through the awards ceremony to answer any questions about the penalties that were called. Under the USAT system, there may be multiple officials at the race, but the head ref is the only one who is responsible for the assessment of penalties. (Assistants report fouls, and if I agree that their report constitutes a penalty, then a penalty is issued).

Occasionally, an athlete has a beef with a call and brings his beef to me. I'm easy to spot: I'm the only one sitting near the awards ceremony in the oh-so-attractive zebra shirt. Sometimes, it gets a bit testy. Never anything over the line (at least, not yet), and I think it's important that the athlete know what was seen and what was called. I also think it's important they have their say, which is usually all they ever really want, and they realize the penalty is not going to change. It takes a few moments, tops, then it's over.

In this particular case, maybe the call was righteous, and maybe it was BS. I dunno, I wasn't there, and neither were anyone else in this except the OP and his flunky in the gorilla suit. We ask officials to exercise judgment and enforce the rules, and I still have no reason to believe this official did not. As I asserted before, OP and his flunky are beneath contempt for their words and actions here, which all would have likely been unnecessary if they had discussed it (like grown-ups) with the head official. They probably would not have been happy with his answer or his reasoning, but they could have had their say and moved on with their lives.

+1