Well this thread has taken kind of a weird turn, but amongst the child sex offender analogies I appreciate the thoughtful replies. I think this one best sums up where I land up on it too.

assuming that this is where you got that from, you've either misread or misrepresented the definition. 'sexual offense against a child' is the next definition down in the list, alphabetically, and you've lumped it in here.

anyway quit derailing things.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

He *did* pick another sport...

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

I wouldn’t say this is derailing it shows the spectrum. Anytime doping is brought up here it seems inevitably someone makes a horrible analogy to a felony, in this case being a sex offender in relation to children.

It shows there is a wide range of beliefs on where cheating in a sport lies with some not caring alol the way to others putting it on the level of sex offense and murder (separate post).

Clearly some (including myself) think putting doping anywhere near crimes against humanity like sex offenses and murder is repugnant.

Take away that analogy and the conversation is totally reasonable.

I just don't like how people aren't treated equally, and also treated badly even when having served their penalty.

For those who can't understand WHY he would dare cross that line.......it was 20 years ago in a sport that you made a choice to either dope, or go back to working on the farm, etc. The entire peloton was doped. Every so called 'darling' of pro cycling eventually was outed as a doper.....

I don't think that should disqualify him for life from other sports, especially when we seem to celebrate other former pro cyclists joining the sport, just because 'they didn't test positive' (neither did lance...). Jalabert, Vino, etc. And to be clear, I don't believe Michi ever 'tested positive' either. I believe he was given a 2 year ban for his association with a blood doping clinic based on testimony. Now, do I think he doped? Of course. But he served his penalty.

People who have a huge prob with him should go protest at WADA's offices. I think it looks horrible on other pro's being rude to him for something that happened literally 20 years ago in a different sport, for which he served his punishment. Whether it be a well known pro like Beals, or a complete unknown like Ben. They should respect their peers and the rules IMHO. I also think it was horrible for a age grouper to be yelling obscenities at him a few years ago at one of the races. I hope Michi got a good punch in.

Meh. In the same way that there are pros out there who are unliked for reasons other than doping, no one is entitled to my (or anyone's) respect just because they race at a high level. It might be something of a high horse, but frankly it's not that hard to not cheat. This horse has plenty of space on it. You better believe I'm going to be upset if Collin Chartier comes back after his ban and starts winning again. You've got a million other jobs and lifestyles out there available to you, no need to pick the one where you got in trouble for attempting to cheat your 'co-workers' out of money and success.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

I completely disagree with your conclusion, and already explained why in another comment so I won't rehash all that. But to your new point of other successful dopers, just because other people celebrate them doesn't mean you can say "we." We all don't. I don't.

And I have stated my opinion on the rules to people that have influence over them, but obviously they have no reason to care what I think. "Protest WADA" is a pretty cheap out. It's completely legitimate to not like the rules as they stand, and to also not like the fact that there is not much most of us can do about it but express our opinions when the conversation comes up.

But when was Beals rude? Because he congratulated the second place finisher for a good race? Seems pretty neutral to me.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

Sorry if I was wrong there, I was going by what someone else posted on the forum about Beals and another pro 'forgetting' to congratulate him.

I think he's just friends with the guy who came in 2nd, so he posted a pic with the both of them.

I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that the are a lot of people not talking about who came in first, but it's not exactly a slight. And if it is a protest, it's about as mild as it gets.

And as for Ben, I think he's completely within bounds to state his opinion on doping and dopers. A very legitimate way to try to control the current problem is dealing with the rule that lets dopers hang around. Also, it's the lowest horse ever to claim someone is high on it.

Don't cheat, dislike cheaters. That's all it takes to be welcomed onto it.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

“IF”

That’s why he doesn’t deserve it. You will never know. Once a cheater always a cheater.

When spouses cheat… it’s never 1x. It’s the 1x they got caught….

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

If a friend slept with another friends wife… that’s not the only one. That’s the point. That’s just the one he was caught with

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I thought it was a good one!

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

Why do comments like this pop up so early in doping threads on slowtwitch? Is it because doping is widespread (pros + AGers) & accepted throughout the sport? Let's not be naive -- you reap the benefits of doping long after you're done cheating. I'm sick of hearing that these people have big aerobic engines and were already good. So what. There are people doing things right that deserve to make a podium or grab a KQ or whatever over these guys. You can get really good at triathlon by putting in the work. It's a joke to normalize this stuff. It's not normal to cheat & then keep competing. We should make it as uncomfortable as possible for these people to stick around the sport.

THIS

10000000000X THIS

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I think because this is likely the best "compromise" overall.

WADA or any world authority is not going to implement an lifetime ban for this type of infractions, they just aren't. There are too many layers to it, that they could never really implement an true 1 strike and your out plan. I think it's easy to say create that type of policy, but then there are all kinds of "doping" busts that aren't equal. Thus why they have made it stronger sentence but also have the ability to "work" with the athlete in the event they admit and work with authorities. And let's be real, all the other pros are doing is giving the guy the cold shoulder. That's about all they can do, now how the "fans" react to dopers, is another story. But that's also kinda where the athlete kinda has to "know the room". Obviously no one wants any chirping at another person to cross the line, so as long as it pretty much stays clean, I think that's just the reality that ex dopers have to face. Again I'm not suggesting anything turn physical or people get into other people's face, but if you hear the chirping from others, I think that's just kinda part of doing sport as an ex doper. A shoulder shrug can go a long way in those instances.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

-- you reap the benefits of doping long after you're done cheating.

Not asking sarcastically: do you mind pointing out at a study supporting this? It is well known that steroid abusers, for example, will often struggle the rest of their lives with low testosterone levels, organ damage, high blood pressure, etc. So definitely not steroids. Will EPO keep your hematocrit above say 50% years after using it?

"New (old now) research suggests that athletes who use steroids for a short period can benefit for their entire careers."

https://www.bbc.com/...environment-24730151

"The Norwegians believe that their research calls into question the current proposal from the World Anti Doping Agency (Wada) to raise the penalty for dopers from two years to four.

"In science if you cheat, you are out for life, and my personal view is that it should be similar for athletes," he said."

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

The study indicates that this was "proven" in mice. And if it "could be proven in humans" (which wasn't as part of the study). What are your thoughts?

At the very least it's not like the time you're able to train harder and more just disappear from your athletic history. I can't make claims that the direct effect of the drugs or transfusions remain, but the fitness benefits which matter over years still benefit the athlete.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

"Researchers found that power lifters who have stopped taking steroids had an advantage in their sport years after they stopped using the drugs."

My thoughts are that you are likely not genuinely curious and you're "just asking questions" to try to defend ex dopers. And I'm not as forgiving as you and many others in here.

Maybe you are, but I'm just skeptical of all the leniency in this thread.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

you got to come back to ST!!

Probably posted later, but Long credits weiss for being stronger and he has the full podium shot

Not defending them. But I am trying to have a fair discussion about whether convicted athletes deserve a second chance or not. On the one hand I think everyone deserves a second chance, on the other hand I am skeptical about their results since there is a chance they could be playing dirty again.

I would argue that triathletes and other endurance athletes don't use steroids to bulk up (heck if someone needs to use steroids to build the physique of a professional triathlete, chances are this athlete does not have the genes to be a pro) However, endurance athletes have used steroids to keep lean muscle while shedding fat (i.e. get ripped..a convicted female runners comes to mind) during heavy volume. Whether the mouse on study extrapolates to humans or not, the steroid effect goes away when the cycle is off, check any bodybuilding/fitness discussion forums

It seems as if the effect of EPO starts wearing off after about four weeks (quick Google, Pitsiladis study.. actually seems like the study was funded by WADA). Do we know of another study challenging the Pitsiladis results indicating that blood boosting effect of EPO stays years after a cycle?

I don't think folks are implying that. I think they are saying the extra amount of training/recovery the athlete was able to do while using said drugs, can have a long lasting benefit. I could be mistaken though!

The research outcomes aren't uniequivocal but they are pretty clear. Use of steroids increases athletic performance for the test of your life. It's not a hard conclusion to draw either. You don't just gain size of muscle cells, you gain quantity of muscle cells. It takes a lot for your body to reduce the actual number of muscle cells. Someone with 110 cells is always going to have a higher ceiling than someone with 100.

It stands to reason that any promising young athlete should be exposed to a few off-seasons of steroids use before they are subject to biological passport or OOC testing. It's unethical of course, but with the potential reward it's hard to imagine 100% (or 90%, 80%) of athletes/coaches saying no to the opportunity.

The data driven sanction is lifetime ban for steroids. That's obviously untenable. Stimulants, EPO, blood transfusions, etc all can have their own sanctions.