I guess I have the $199 one. I think I get it discounted off that because I pay the whole thing up front. I forget exactly what it is because it gets billed automatically.

Sounds right. Thank you

And you were able to send videos to him to have them critiques

I thought that was only on the $199/month program

Also some background.. I was doing just distance OWS during the pandemic and did an IM distance swim “race” and was like 61:08 (it was within a 100y or so). So I decided I’d do a full IM. I then went to a masters swim practice that met 4x a week and I actually got slower. I became focused more on time and I picked up a ton of bad habits because I was trying to keep pace. I then just stopped because I went from swimming low 1:30’s to mid 1:40’s. I was “quick” for short things but if I went and tried to swim for any distance, I would fade every consecutive 100 badly. So I stopped masters, took time off, did the 5 day catch and went from 1:35 to 1:25 for 4x100y off 30s. I’ve then fluctuated between those two times but being able to swim a lot longer at good pace. Went back to the same swim “race” and swam 58:30 and then ~65:30 in a 2 loop IM wetsuit swim.

After getting back into sending videos every 2 weeks, if I did that same swim, I’d be close to if not breaking 60:00 the way I’m swimming now.

Bingo, l couldn't have said it better. That is exactly what happens when an adult onset swimmer with bad technique just ups the yardage.

It is more than a waste of time. It actually sets you back because you are just practicing a terrible stroke. Not a good idea.

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I'm sure you can improve your technique, but in reality, for most 'normal' folks, a 1:40IM swim after 1 year of 3-4x swimming per week with the volume you did is actually pretty typical for someone who's never done anything competitive in the pool and didn't have any sort of other significant swim background other than learning to swim as a kid.

I guarantee if you just did exactly what you're doing for 3 years, consistently, you'd be a 1:20IM swimmer sooner rather than later. I even suspect with swim coaching, you wouldn't be a ton faster than you are now, as fitness-techinique in swimming are indeed inseparable as SnappingT has said, and your swim fitness at <1yr of swimming will be so low that you can't even physically do the EVF or higher turnover needed for higher speed.

Sure, there are folks who get crazy fast in <1yr of swimming, but they're the exception rather than the norm. And forget about comparing yourself to competitive swim-team kids. Those kids are BY DEFINITION the talented ones. No kid was a below average gifted swimmer stuck to competitive swimming for years, coming last or near-dead last by a fair margin in every workout/race - if they were adults, they'd be the ones swimming fast quickly.

The 'Beavis and Butthead' of triathlon youtube Robert Van Impe and Arno Van impe (they're hilarious check 'em out) are a great example of natural talent. Robert was a ex-national-class comp swimmer in his youth in Belgium, and he busted out a 1:08/100m all-out in the pool after 10 years of no swimming, then swam a 1:05(I think) in his 1st IM. His brother Arno did NOT do competitive swimming, but still busted out a 1:20/100m on his first go, and 1:20 in his 1st IM. Arno swims as nearly fast as I do in the pool, which is 1:30-1:35/100yds for 3000yds pace, and I've been doing tri for nearly 10 years (but am def below or at best avg in natural swim talent judging by my progress and initial speeds.)

You are correct, but not for the reasons you think. The reason "most normal folks" progress so little swim speed wise in their first years (and many years past that) is because they continue to slog out the yards with terrible technique. I know this because l have personally seen many, many triathletes who have been competing for years (2-10 years) with very large stroke flaws. And, more crazy, with stroke flaws that are ridiculously easy to correct.

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I think you're underestimating how hard it is for 'normal' folks to fix those mistakes and gain the proper neuromuscular technique chain - which requires a lot of hard swimming before you can show off that smooth-easy fast lower-effort stroke.

I don't disagree that the overwhelming majority of triathletes have significant stroke flaws that they're unaware of - pretty much if you haven't video'd yourself, it's hard to imagine the errors you're making.

But even with that, there's only so much you can fix in technique as a new swimmer in 1 year, as the OP. Arno, the genetically gifted swimmer from the youtube video I mentioned, had a world-class coach as well, and still could only go a middling 1:20 IM swim (which is amazing for a 6 month duration training swimmer, but not at all hard for most experienced triathletes.)

I do agree with you for the 3+ year triathlete swimmers though - they definitely plateau because of a combo of lack of technical awareness as well as lack of swim volume commitment. I'm still not convinced that the technical fixes are their major limiter compared to the volume - if you're swimming like 7k/wk, and are of joe-average natural ability, you're not gonna get better than average, ever, even with optimal coaching, as you're trying to beat guys with much greater natural gifts than you, or trying to be other joe-average guys like me who are literally swimming 2x or 3x what you do per week.

I can guarantee you it isn't your technique that is holding you back. It's the lack of time training in the pool. There are two ways to improve in swimming. You can do a lot of volume or a lot of intensity. The intensity is a little better suited for most triathletes since the training schedule doesn't allow for a lot of volume. Either way you need to build the fitness to get to and maintain the technique. Most triathletes would benefit from more of a constraint-led approach (using gear to force stroke corrections) with a lot of race pace/intensity. I coach athletes remotely this way all the time. If you don't have a coach on deck delivering feedback on the drill you are doing or even if it's the appropriate one for your technique issues, then it's not very impactful.

I hope this helps.

Tim

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Well, l have never done a study, l only have my own experience as a triathlete and a swim technique coach. But for people that l have helped with their strokes (athletes that kept with it after the feedback session), all got big speed increases. Also, with many of the people that l have coached that had big and very visible stroke issues, l asked them, "did your masters group coach ever give you any stroke help or feedback?"

95% of the time, the answer was, "No, never."

So there is that.

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I too am amazed at the near-complete lack of stroke training you get in masters groups, both swim and tri. If you're faster than 1:45/100, it's pretty much zero feedback. It makes me wonder why people keep recommending masters swims for beginners. They should be getting coaching from a decent coach first, but if they can't swing that, video themselves once in awhile to make sure they know what they are actually doing in the water.

I'm curious about your big speed increases. Like how much faster is someone like the OP's ability improving in what amount of time? And then how much is someone like myself who's doing 1:30-1:35/3000 in a pool improving with your stroke correction? I'm literally doing my own further stroke refinement now with self-video every week, but I'm getting no gains in the short term - hoping for long term ones though.

let me turn this around a little. Feedback should be given but there is also a reality that coaches can have 25-30 athletes in the pool and it can make giving feedback to everyone challenging at times.

Challenge the coach. Tell them you want some feedback...show your interest...your curiousity...your drive and motivation to improve. Be proactive and ask way. Never in 20 years of coaching as i refused to give feedback, take a moment and sit down with a athlete that is asking for it. Some athlete want minimal feedback and prefer to be left alone while others are dying for it.

When a athlete ask questions, it light up a fire under my ass to work with this athlete that show clear and strong signal that it want to improve and get better. I strongly suggest nurturing this kind of relationship... it s fun on both sides and results will come.

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This is good advice!!

If you lived near me, we could do a Hank Haney/Charles Barclay TV show.

Very interesting to me

When you say volume what sort of amount of swimming would you be tuning please?

Yup. So far recently I’ve done 5/22, 6/2, 6/29 (I raced in the middle there so didn’t video) and then I’ll send one at the end of this week.

Also.. like people mentioned above about drills. If I don’t think I’m doing a drill right, ill video a drill and ask for his opinion on that as well.

Quoted for truth!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

This is a great thread. One thing I've learned from it (that I wish I realized years ago) and I'd encourage all swim coaches to do is to clearly state your philosophy to your athletes.

If you think you can write swim workouts and that's going to be good enough to get your athlete where they need to go, you should discuss that with them and set that expectation.

I've had a tri-specific coach and two masters coaches. I've used Front Pack Swim. My wife is a former collegiate swimmer and coach. The local Y coach has looked at my stroke for me. They all think my stroke is "fine". Some have written great workouts for me. None has significantly improved my ability to swim faster.

One 5-day catch challenge with ES and I dropped 15 seconds per 100 yards repeatable and PRd my 25, 50, 100, 200 and 3x300 on 30 seconds rest. The 3x300 was a test set I used to do. I dropped my average by 30 seconds per 300 from my best ever test.

That doesn't sound like I just needed volume.

Admittedly, my next big jump probably comes from more volume because I have kinda plateaued and I'm into the 8-week ES course so I've got 400 things I'm simultaneously thinking about as I swim. The difference is I now have an expectation of what is right and what is wrong so I know what to look and feel for.

I'm curious how that works, is it a one-on-one call with a review of your personal video? I'd totally pay $199 a year just for that but that almost sounds too good to be true?

It is too good to be true, as it's $199 a month.

No, it’s $199 a year. He has some other more expensive thing, where you can have unlimited contact with him. But for $199 a year you get unlimited access to the online content and 1 video analysis a month.

For the video analysis, you send in a video ahead of the live call. He then analyses everyone’s video in that call, so you get to see everyone else’s too. If you can’t join the live call, you can watch it later at a time to suit. I’ve always watched it afterwards as it’s in the middle of the night Europe time. In fact I should have one to watch today.

I don't see anything about 1 video analysis per month on his website unless you pay the $199 per month?

He would have hundreds, maybe even thousands of members, can't see how he could possibly offer this service to everyone? And how long does the analysis of everyone's stroke go for if this is the case, must be a couple of hours long?

Last nights video was 90 minutes (but I just scrolled through to find myself). Not every member sends a video every month, it's been a while since I sent one.

If you scroll down to the section in dark blue, titled "100% online...." it shows what is included and the last thing is monthly stroke analysis https://effortlessswimming.com/...kSx-yFwaAr6DEALw_wcB

So, what does your college swimmer wife have to say about your great improvement??? What was it that you changed in your stroke??? Are you just getting a much better pull on the water now??? With a live-in coach, I'm surprised you needed anything/anyone beyond her. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

One thing that l quickly picked up in my own swimming journey: many people swim fast. But very few of them know how to teach another person to swim fast.

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Its complicated. Some masters coaches are lazy. Others are awesome and enthusiastic and frequently give out feedback. It might be surprising, but some swimmers absolutely hate criticism and feedback and shut down all attempts by a coach to help them. Masters clubs also give beginner swimmers an introduction to training in a pool, interval training, etc. Ideally, a new swimmer should be exposed to both a masters club and a technique instructor.


Doing your own videos is good, but do you feel that you have the expertise and experience to see what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong? In terms of improvement, l have given stroke feedback which resulted in 5 to 7 second improvements per 100 yds within 2 weeks of the technique session, with no increased swim volume (this is with swimmers that are already swimming consistently).

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