Again, seems the folks that bitch are the bikers that cannot swim or run.. Go to crit racing and get your butts kicked.

They always ignore that they probably are drafting on the swim, since they probably suck.

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Are you ignoring that there is no rules against drafting on the swim and run.........

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

and not everyone follows them on the bike either;)

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

And it is legal to draft at 12m.

The point is why is okay to draft on one leg, but not the other?

The point is, the rules say 12m, so why bitch?

The point is, lets stop drafting on the swim?

The point is, .........

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So see I can have a discussion on your points, see how I did?

And it is legal to draft at 12m. ......yes and the whole discussion point that we are discussing is there options to increase the draft zone and thus make it more of an individual effort.


The point is why is okay to draft on one leg, but not the other? .....that's easy to answer, it's easy to officiate on the bike. It actually would be super easy to officiate force athletes to manage on the run as well. The swim being the nature and dynamic that swimming is, there can be times you wouldn't know how close/far you are from the next swimmer. You swim with your head down in the water 99% of the swim, so it would be very hard to create that rule in the water ESPECIALLY for mass start swim.


The point is, the rules say 12m, so why bitch? where have I bitched? I've brought up a discussion point, with very valid reasons why I think 12m is not the best "non draft" solution. You may agree, you may disagree but to say "it's the rules so deal" is the most stupid closed minded response you can have.


The point is, lets stop drafting on the swim? In a mass start race? Impossibly hard to do that.....in a time trial start, yes that is the answer if you wanted a true "individual" effort. But that's the thing, we have to give and take on rules. We cant make it a 1 min time trial start for every race, that would just not be feasible.


See you made a point, I countered your point, now if you want to counter mine, great.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm not sure when I'm going to stop laughing.......

Actually, my point was/is that the bike should not be over half the race but rather each leg should be roughly equal time-wise. Further, if the swim were 5000 m in a half iron race, this would go a long way to reducing drafting. Of course, this is all a pipe dream since equilateral triathlons have never been very popular. :(

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Eh your wanting something no one really cares about. The draft zone distance whatever it is, atleast has ppl in the sport talking.

Like I said with my original comment. When one of your best ranked athletes refuses to race championship race it atleast should lead to some discussions on the topic. And maybe there are behind the scenes, and maybe there isn't. I just think it's fair to talk about it with other events showcasing *atleast* how 20m has/can work.

20m draft zone isn't as far fetched as your idea I would say (even if valid idea).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If he was the "best" triathlete, and not just a biker, he would show up to race no matter what the conditions are. This is why the ITU guys are SO strong. They have no weaknesses.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Here's something interesting

https://www.swissside.com/blogs/news/the-deal-with-drafting?


Seems to me there isn't a big difference between 12 & 20 so unless they go with 50, rules are rules and let racers race within those limits.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

So my question to you is if you don't think a ~3.5% saving is significant, I would say fair enough. But that's roughly the difference in 12m and 20m in this particular study. And yes this study was done at calm, wind perfect conditions. But none the less it's atleast a aero drag study that we can atleast look at numbers and debate.

Secondly, 20m draft races again have already been implemented. Here are real world pro comments from 20m race(s) from an ST article in 2015 and triathlete magazine online article:

Sixty-nine pro men and 34 pro women started, a large number. But once on the 90km bike course all the athletes were nicely spread out and there was not a single situation I came across where athletes were riding too close or trying to push the boundaries.


"Twenty meters is perfect and it makes it a very honest race. With the rule asking you to be 20 meters apart you might as well be 50 meters or 100 meters apart, there is no benefit. I absolutely love it," said South African James Cunnama to Slowtwitch right after the race. "It did not help me here but I still think it is great."


Aussie Tim Reed, who ended up in second place, shared his sentiments about that rule on Twitter. "Once again the 20 meter rule worked brilliantly in #ChallengeDubai. Should be the standard with a longer passing time. Carry on," tweeted the Budgy Smuggler.


"The ruling is very welcomed by me for sure. I have raced it twice now and on both occasions I have felt the race has been a much more open race. I do feel certain elements of the ruling needs attention, time to pass, time to drop back and the judging/assessment of 20 meters becomes more subject to personal eye if there are no physical markers present," said Helle Frederiksen who won Challenge Bahrain and finished 3rd in Dubai.


Both Jacobs and Frederiksen would like to see the rule applied at more races. “Given the success of this and how much the professional athletes support it, I would like to think that race organizations take it upon themselves to implement it,” Frederiksen says. “That said, for me, when it comes to non-draft competitions, I feel this really should be the norm. I’d like to see it in all non-draft events globally. On courses with loops, I agree it is more difficult but for sure in major championship races and races hosting large prize purses, I would welcome it being the standard.”
Jacobs also thinks it should be applied at all races. “It allows the gaps to expand beyond the draft zone more easily,” he says, “and therefore makes it possible more often for an athlete making their way through the bunch to do so with less chance of penalty, as per the current rules of needing to pass an entire group who are spaced at the limit of the draft zones.”
Here were some negatives to the 20m rules, and why I think it will be very hard opposed in Hawaii because they use the current markers as easy identifiers for athletes/officials....

However, she’d like to see a few changes to how it’s implemented, namely very clear visual markers for athletes as well as possibly a slightly longer passing time. “In Bahrain, it was very easy [to eyeball 20 meters] because the organization was great in letting us know what the visual markers for assessment were to be for the officials,” she says. “This, to me, is how it should be—transparent in communication. Dubai was a little tougher. Despite asking numerous times pre-race for an indication of what the referees were using as their visual marker, I got no confirmation. This I don’t like, as it is suddenly purely all down to what the referee says and feels he sees. I’m not a fan of that.”
Read more at http://www.triathlete.com/...#efIbH42HeDjakxwR.99

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

ETA: I'll leave it with this, as I guess it is what it is, I've said my piece, showed data, showed comments; heard from Monty why it won't work, etc etc. But here is Ali Brownlee on the 20m rule when he was racing challenge "championship" (I can't find any post race comments).

"The bike course is relatively flat but the 20m draft rule will keep everyone honest and it should be a good race.”


So like I said, if 20m rules can be implemented in 1 particular race series, and work, I'm just not sure why it can't in other race series at championship levels. That's all. I don't think I'm suggesting some ground breaking innovative here.


Enjoyed the discussion!

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Agreed, I appreciate the discussion as well. The only thing I'll add is I just read Lionel's ITU thing, he referenced the same report and commented that a stagger rule could also be used. Find that interesting but incredibly difficult to manage, especially for female pros who would be in the mix of slower MPro and pointy AG. As well, that seems like a nightmare for moto coverage and would end up in Nasser like danger. Maybe when they start using drones for coverage it could work!

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

My intuition as well as experience is that the farther out you get the more likely the effective draft is disrupted by any crosswind component that exists. So at 20 meters getting much if any help is incredibly unlikely while at 10 meters you're vastly more likely to grab a decent assist perhaps by sitting a couple of feet micro echeloned over as most cyclists will do automatically. So while in perfectly calm conditions 20 meters may not provide much less draft than 10 meters in the real world they're very different.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I didn't say it is insignificant or negligible, just arbitrary. because it is. why is 20 better than 12? or 19? eventually it comes down to an arbitrary choice about what is ok and what isn't.

there's nothing inherent in the 20m distance that makes it magic.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Hi, this is my first post in Slowtwitch. I am sorry if my english is not good enough...
Going straight to the point of the drafting issue:
- No matter, from my POV to change from 12 to 20m. If the strongest cyclist believe they are being harmed because of the actual rule, I do agree to extend the distance (why not using a chip to control the distance at every moment for the athlete and the officials?'). But let me tell you that drafting in swimming is also a benefit for the swimmer which comes befind the other.... so, what about Kienle or sanders being banned to go behind the feet of other swimmer??? how much time may they lose ?? so, want anyone a TT?
- Gomez. I am from his same region in Spain and apart from my support I might say objetively that he´s the best triathete in the last 20 years. He is not the best in ITU sprint distance (which I hate, because that´s not triathlon, that´s a 5000m run with previous swimming and cycling), probably not the best ever in olympic distance in one event (Alistair is), but he is the most complete, consistant and he´been at the top for more than 12 years. He missed Athens Olympics 2004 because the spanish federation banned him to compete because his heart disease (I am sure he was fit for a top ten, he was just 21). He finished 4th in Beijin Olympics 2008 with his wrecked ankle and finished 2nd in 2012 behind Alistair, not far from him. He missed the 2016 Olympics due to broken elbow. He´s won 5 ITU world championships, 1 xterra, 2 x70.3 world champs and next year he´ll go into Ironman and with proper training (he must improve his cycling) he will sweep Frodeno, Kienle, Sanders and everyone.
If Javi does not lose more than 5-7m in the T2 with people like Frodo or Kienle, he´ll win, I am sure. And if he wins he ´ll go back to Olympic distance to win gold in Tokyo because he deserves it. It will be difficult to go backwards to run sub 30 for the 10km but he is able to do it
-Alistair. I can´t see Ali Brownlee in full Ironman, this guy tends to get injured easily and will go back to the WTS and some 70.3.He is a classy guy but he aint got the head for IM, neither the body. He´s gone on surgery for 2-3 times in his hip, ankle...he runs on his toes and he cant do it for 42km.... maybe I am wrong but I even doubt that he will classify for Kona 2018
So, guys, unless Kienle, Sanders improve their swim and Frodo improves his running I see Javi as a huge threat to everyone.
Cheers

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

there's nothing inherent in the 20m distance that makes it magic.

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you are missing one key component why 20m has been repeatedly used as the next draft zone distance.....because it's been used in real world conditions and races and by accounts did what increasing the draft zone was suppose to do. That's it, so arguing if it's semantics, is kinda beside the point.


Whether 20m is the ideal magic distance or not, it's improved the bike, so if you want to debate that, debate that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Have they been watching this thread?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4krNMEduK4

I have to agree with everything you have said. Gomez's potential ceiling in Ironman is so much higher than even Frodeno. He will absolutely have to improve on the bike, as his level just now is good, but nothing special. He may need a few extra kilos for this. If he does improve this he could go sub 8 at Kona.

Alistair isn't doing Ironman. He'll be a beast at 70.3 but Kona will be like The Championship all over. I don't think he has the temperament for Ironman either.

Do you think Javi can go back down to Tokyo? I have to think that if Tokyo is on the radar he needs to delay Ironman and have some luck with ageing and the course. If he retains his run speed and it's a tough and technical course he could have a chance for the win but thats a long way off. I honestly think he would have beaten Alistair in Rio in those conditions and with the form he had leading up to the injury.

Solution:

Kona: 24m. If the marks are every 12m, let´s double the distance. Of course, time for overtaking should be extended. Long straights...racers can see each other in those long straight roads
Other races: 20m

I have not read all the posts but apart from the draft benefit, a big issue is to have a reference in front of you. You can keep a pace trying to follow the athlete coming first...

Age groupers: difficult to extend. Too many people racing. Ironman must choose between the money or the quality. You cannot let 1000 people racing even separated in different start times... drafting is unavoidable unless IM reduces the number of people racing

Lat point: ITU Long Distance WC. Pros and Age groups all mixed together. That´s a blunder. They even had to cycle in one lane. Age Groupers slowing pros and so on....

Again, money vs quality

Cheers

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Some of the things you write are correct, however there is NO WAY Gomez can outrun Frodo by 7 min. He regularly runs 2:40 which would mean Gomez would have to run 2:33 which is not going to happen. I also don't think Gomez has a real shot at a gold in Tokyo as he will be too old.
As for Ali B I actually think he will do great things in ironman when he has fully decided upon it. And we will see next year if he's heading for Kona or Tokyo. I believe Ali would like a triple/quadruple oly gold and get that cbe

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Hi. Frodo does not run 2.40 in Kona, never done that before. See his time splits:
2014: 2.47
2015: 2.52
2016:2.45

Patrick Lange run 2.39 last year. Gomez can run faster than that guy

Maybe Gomez will be old for Tokyo, but his decission will depend on:
- will the race be sprint distance? He won´t go
- Standard distance: Depending on the contenders. If nobody appears breaking the standard these 2-3 coming years, he´ll go if he wins Kona in 2018

Gomez must improve on the bike, a lot. But he is capable. He´s got a good areo position, now he must put more watts and more mileage. He does ride good on uphills , must improve for the plain. he is a short guy (1.76m), so his legs are not the Frodo´s levers, but he is stubborn and a hard working athlete.

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

I didn't mention Kona, just that he won't run low 2:3x anywhere. Sure Frodeno hasn't run 2-40 yet in kona, but have no doubt that he could if he needed to. Gomez may be faster than Lange, but honestly I doubt that there is much more to shave off that time. I could see a uberrunner do perhaps 2:37 on a great day, but have a hard time seeing anyone being faster than that.
I also do not believe one can go back to sub 30 10ks after ironman training. He will certainly have to decide during next year if he wants to do Tokyo, same goes for brownlee. I definitely agree that he is a freak athlete and also believe he would win kona against the current contenders, just not that he will outrun frodo (who has also been a sub 30 runner) by 5-7 min

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Gomez's potential ceiling in Ironman is so much higher than even Frodeno.


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While this may be true one fact that is true. For Gomez to out duel Frodo, he has to win what 3 kona's. That is one hell of a tough ask, and yes I think Gomez can crush IM. I think it's more to say waitttttt a second.....give Frodo props for being a 2 time Kona winner in what 3 or 4 attempts. So Frodo has set a very high ceiling for Gomez to eclipse imo.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Why is 20 better than 12?

Maybe because it's nearly twice the distance?

Maybe because at 12 meters, the draft effect is still so strong that's obviously and dramatically affecting races?

I'll give you the 20 would not be a significant change from 19, but right now we're talking about pros being 10 or 12m apart. The difference in how much less draft benefit one gets from 10 or 12m to 20 is huge.

I think others have suggested that in Kona go 24 since the hashtag marks on the road are at 12 M apart, that would make for easy officiating.

I guess in an Ideal World, some of the big brain people wood quantify at what distance the draft effect becomes negligible and then the rules people would set the Gap at as close to that as feasible while still allowing for all of the racers to fit on course.

20 meters will never happen for age groupers, so it's a moot point for 99.99% of us, but for the pros, I think a bigger following distance is not only feasible, it's warranted and makes for a more exciting race to watch.

It's definitely possible given JG has taken up to 2 mins out of JF in ITU. And given JF ran 2:45 last year, 2:38 isn't out of the question.

I honestly don't think AB can stay fit long enough to get to Kona in optimum shape. AB at 80% can win ITU races, but with the duration and conditions in Kona I doubt 80% would be enough to finish, given his unrelenting style.