Hoping kienle will surprise us with a stellar run.

How can I watch coverage of this?

http://eu.ironman.com/...y=2017#axzz4sC5gQUrR

He will come off the bike amongst the top 3 if he is in-form
The run is anyone guess, if Javier is within 2 mins, he should win it

Think Timbo Reed has his eye on the Kona prize, so i don;t expect the same gallant run like last year

Will be interesting!

Enjoying the switch up of Lieto and Welch for commentating. Welch is calmer and sounds great with the smaller role 'on the ground'.

Dede G is a nice addition too.

Looks like Kanute and Javi are killing that swim. No surprise there.

Ben can ride and if he and Gomez work together they can get a good gap. Looks pretty promising for Gomez.

Bike should be interesting. Big chase group. Though it did just split.

Where is Sebi??

Four minutes down, I think. Gonna be tough for him.

Come on Sebi, make it happen!!!

TOP 10 Pro Men - Out Of Swim
1 24:03 Ben Kanute
2 24:08 0:05 Javier Gomez
3 24:58 0:56 Tim Don
4 25:01 0:58 Carlos Javier Quincha
5 25:01 0:58 Sam Appleton
6 25:04 1:01 Matt Chrabot
7 25:05 1:03 Mauricio Mendez Cruz
8 25:06 1:03 Rodolphe Von Berg
9 25:07 1:04 Maurice Clavel
10 25:07 1:05 Ivan Kalashnikov
11 25:09 1:07 Antoine Jolicoeur Des
12 25:15 1:13 Reinaldo Colucci
13 25:18 1:15 Tyler Butterfield
14 25:20 1:17 Tim Reed
15 25:20 1:18 Felipe Van De Wyngard
16 25:22 1:19 Brent McMahon
17 25:27 1:24 Pieter Heemeryck
18 25:40 1:38 Patrick Dirksmeier
19 25:43 1:41 Yvan Jarrige
20 25:45 1:42 Eric Watson
21 26:24 2:21 Ivan Tutukin
22 26:25 2:22 Drew Scott
23 26:31 2:28 Kevin Collington
24 26:36 2:33 Jackson Laundry
25 26:37 2:35 Taylor Reid
26 26:39 2:36 Andreas Dreitz
27 27:36 3:34 Matt Hanson
28 28:17 4:14 Trevor Wurtele
29 28:18 4:15 Mario De Elias
30 28:22 4:19 Sebastian Kienle
31 28:22 4:19 Jesse Thomas
32 28:23 4:20 Adam Otstot
33 28:44 4:41 Alan Carrillo Avila

TOP 20 Pro Men - Thru Bike Split 2 - 8.06 mi
1 49:56 Ben Kanute
2 50:51 0:55 Javier Gomez
3 52:09 2:13 Tim Don
4 52:13 2:17 Matt Chrabot
5 52:15 2:20 Pieter Heemeryck
6 52:18 2:22 Maurice Clavel
7 52:20 2:24 Sam Appleton
8 52:23 2:27 Reinaldo Colucci
9 52:25 2:29 Rodolphe Von Berg
10 52:34 2:38 Mauricio Mendez Cruz
11 53:10 3:14 Brent McMahon
12 53:28 3:32 Ivan Kalashnikov
13 53:43 3:47 Tim Reed
14 53:44 3:48 Yvan Jarrige
15 53:46 3:50 Carlos Javier Quincha
16 54:06 4:10 Tyler Butterfield
17 54:12 4:16 Andreas Dreitz
18 54:16 4:21 Taylor Reid
19 54:20 4:24 Ivan Tutukin
20 54:22 4:27 Kevin Collington

Doesn't look like Sebi is making up time.

Looks like no wetsuit for men pros but wetsuit for age groupers? What is the water temp for age groupers to have wetsuit?

It's it 76.1? Pros is lower right... it's early. 69 for Pros? You would think we would know this shit. lol

He's making his move. He just passed a lot of people.

I was wondering what the temp is so that age groupers got wetsuit.

Anyway, Sebi just blew by the Butterfield - Reed group at a massive speed differential

I think the announcer said he is up to 4th on the road. Is that correct? He is closing on Drietz.

Nice course, no drafting for the pro men that I can see. Nice job so far to WTC and the pros too.

I heard the same thing, but I think that's wrong.

Sebi just told the moto to get out of his way, lol. He is on a mission.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Did you guys see Javi mess up a bit the last turn of the swim? He took a straight line at the last turn buoy, and a kayaker told him where to go. Happens even to the best of them.

He kept following the lead kayaker. Looks like he was in a zone. Seeing Ben go left should have been a sign.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

I was surprised, as he was on Kanute's feet all of the swim, but he split off in the last 300m.

This is the (1/Brownlee) gesture. Brownlee would have told the moto to get in front of him

Nice top tube riding by Ben Kanute on the descent. Motos keeping a big gap in front of him!

They just said that it appears he has 4 minutes on the chase pack.

Javi just got caught.

And they said Sebi is 30s behind this group. WOooooooooo

Sebi must have hit this downhill <30 seconds behind Javier. Game is on:

Sebi is now in 2nd place.

OK, Sebi just rode through everyone and now in 2nd behind Kanute. I assume he won't just sit around with these guys and try to put a buffer on Javier.

I think all these guys are able to hang on Kienle because the camera moto is behind and diagonally off Kienle, but at 20m back the first guy is getting a piece of draft of Kienle and the massive draft from the moto giving us the coverage. Yes, I am complaining that the camera giving us the coverage is allowing the rest of the guys to hang onto him. Get that camera out of there.....I don't need the visual, I want Sebi to get his fair gap.

Whats happening to Gomez? Seems like he's going backwards now only going from the Twitter feed.

Clavel at least is coming through to take a pull here and there. The rest of those guys seem content to let him and Sebi (and the moto) tow them into T2. Feel bad for Sebi - he's racing his race but it doesn't look like it's paying off, which I guess isn't a big surprise here.

Looks like a draft fest again in the second chase pack.

Concur.

Kind of would like to see old work horse Reinaldo Colucci get a podium, but that's a longshot with Seb, Javier and Tim in the same group at T2.


EDIT: see Colucci's been popped off the back of the group.

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Advocating for research & treatment for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME).
http://www.meaction.net/about/what-is-me/

"Suck it up, Buttercup"
(me, to myself, every day)

Did you guys just see that? Sebi seemed pretty upset at either Gomez or the moto, Gomez just passed Sebi and Appo

I wonder how much the first 30miles will affect SK on the run. To make up 3-4 mins in such a short space of time may have burnt quite a few matches.

Looks like Sebi just gave up giving everyone the tow. Maybe he was saying "if you clowns are just going to stay in my draft, I'm not going to do the work for you anymore."

Someone is claiming Tim Don ran a 28:04 10k (uhhh okay)

That little interaction between Keinle and Gomez was interesting.... how many times has someone told Gomez to get going?

Kanute is winning by a lot yet they are barely discussing him. I think he comes into t2 with a 5 minute gap...

Hardly think anyone is getting a significant draft from the motos. Yes, they are getting a draft from the riders ahead, but a moto to the side is not helping them

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

On the blog they noted that the Chase group was asking the spotters where sebi was before he caught them. Looks like their strategy was to take it easy and wait for sebi so they could hopefully hold his wheel when he caught them.

I kind of hope he doesn't pull them anymore and Kanute gets an insurmountable lead into T2.

If you watch the coverage of a break in the TdF or Vuelta, the camera's almost never show from side/behind/diagonal behind until the rider is way up and clear of the chasers. It is always from way up in the front of the break with zoom. This way the chasers can't latch onto the effort of the guy making the break. The draft from the video camera moto is probably 4-5x larger than from the rider. Overall though it's been pretty good so far.

Looks like Gomez and a few others are running a 50mm rim up front. Interesting, as the same was true for a lot of the top tour riders in the last TT in the TdF. Crowie also always ran a 50 up front. Is the penalty of a 50 over an 80 just not significant?

I think SK is just frustrated at the way things are panning out.

This is what happens when you give up 4 mins on the swim.

I've heard that enough times to believe it - some road race. Who knows about accuracy, but he can run.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

This is also what happens when the motos allow the other guys to stay closer to Kienle. if the motos cover him from way up front after he makes the pass with zoom rather than sit beside/behind him then they would never have a chance to be anywhere close in the first place.

28:56 in Manchester.

Fairly accurate course. This was back in 2010.

Being a relatively crap swimmer means you put yourself in that situation in the first place.

So assuming Kanute didn't destroy his legs on the bike, he's a decent runner and that 3:30 min lead is pretty big over 13.1. He should be able to hold on to the lead for most of the run.

The coverage is pretty good, but it's crying out for a live leaderboard.

Not just for us but the commentators. They're not able to discuss the actual race much as they simply don't know what's going on.

Gotta be cheering for Kanute. That guy's nose has been breaking the wind all morning doing an ITT. He's like the breakaway guy in the TdF who you want the win to be bestowed on vs the closing pack.

I'm rooting for Kanute. I hope he wins.

Javi now in 2nd place.

What's his best 70.3 run? Anyone know?

Is Gomez sprinting a HM?

Yep. Gomez looks great though... Go Ben!!!

Kanute gave back more than a minute to Gomez to the first aid station. He will get passed at mile 9 or so

Gomez wins this race easily...

Lots of talk from the commentary about Ben Kanute hurting a lot based on how his running looks. He always has that run style in the ITU races though. He does definitely seem to be hurting but that 'uncomfortable' run style they're talking about is seen a lot with him. Agree with ya that you have to be cheering for the man after doing all that work by himself on the bike.

Gomez after a slow transition is charging right now! Dropped Kienle like it was nothing.

At this rate probably about 6 miles.

I hope Kanute gets a medal. Mainly because of my ITU bias.

I'm going for Kanute to hang on. He probably won't, but I want him to. I did not see Don nor Gomez really stick their nose out once all through the coverage (sorry, banging on Don again, but he's not the uberbiker that has been claimed on here this year....sorry Milesthedog). Granted the coverage don't show what they are doing all the time, but the guys who put their nose in the wind, you see them doing that often. Go Ben!

The question is "how long can he hurt?" If he can suffer and keep it together to the finish, maybe he can hang on!

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

TOP 10 Pro Men - Thru Run Split 2 - 2.23 mi
1 2:48:43 Ben Kanute
2 2:51:39 2:56 Javier Gomez
3 2:51:46 3:04 Sebastian Kienle
4 2:52:14 3:32 Sam Appleton
5 2:52:14 3:32 Tim Don
6 2:52:15 3:33 Maurice Clavel
7 2:52:24 3:42 Pieter Heemeryck
8 2:52:45 4:03 Tyler Butterfield
9 2:53:27 4:45 Andreas Dreitz
10 2:54:15 5:33 Matt Chrabot

The math doesn't work. It was a valiant effort though. Next year Gomez with AB would be a show.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

I think the race for 2nd is gonna be really interesting. Something keeps telling me SK is gonna pay for his tactics today. But could be a 3 way duel between TD, SA and SK.

I hope so too, but it seems unlikely at this rate. From run split 3.5 through 4.2, Gomez made up 23 seconds. He just looks way too strong right now. He'll have a good chance at holding off Kienle though to take second place.

Who knows though. Kanute might get it together and pick it up these last 8 miles.

I agree...just hoping...I like ballsy attempts to just go off the front and smash it, like another poster said comparing it to a pro tour break.

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Yup, only 1:06 down now at 4.9 miles. Gotta respect Kanute's effort - he did what he needed to do on the swim/bike to put himself in the best position to win. Just won't be enough today.

Agreed...Javi clocking 5:11 pace at last checkpoint.

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

I don't think SK is gonna get a medal here.

He's now running slower than BK.

Ben looks much better than at the start of the run. Gomez is just in a different league. I hope ben can hold on to top 3. He deserves it.

3:12 in, Ben only has 45 seconds on Javier. Still ~40 min of racing to go. Looks like game is over. Kind of sucks for Ben, but he should get the "most aggressive rider award" for the day.

Yeh SK aint getting a medal. TD has just passed.

Another ITU guy in Tim Don. Will probably be the podium today.

ITU! ITU! ITU!

In all seriousness though that is where the best athletes are, certainly for 70.3.

Don looks like he is running like a 10,000m finalist in the Olympics and only 20 seconds off Ben, who is running like a triathlete.

Lol harsh but true. That being said Kanute is still running himself into a medal.

That overtake from Gomez... somewhat authoritative

I can hardly wait till JG moves up to full Ironman. I think he'll be way more sucessful that AB.

I hope he will stay at ITU racing with some jumps into 70.3.
Then we will see him racing more often.

Yeah, it's been a long premise here on ST that ITU success doesn't translate going long (and, in fairness, that was fairly well proven out). Don't think that holds anymore...

Very true. I'm an ITU man so would love to see him stick around.

But I think if he wins the grand final and overall title next week I think he's gone. Tokyo is just too much of a stretch.

Most of the top ITU racers in Europe not only race ITU. They also race the French Grand Prix (team based).
I am not sure if Ironman racing is a better option. You just have so many Ironman races in your body.

What we are seeing is the 2nd stage in the evolution of the sport. The first stage started 8-9 years ago in ITU with AB, JB, JG changing the way races were ran i.e hammering the swim, bike and going sub 30 on the run. Now that is starting seep through into 70.3.

JF & TD were the start of this in full Ironman and I think JG will take things to another level.

Unfortunately guys like SK & LS (incomplete athletes in my opinion) will be a thing of the past in 10 years if this continues.

Couldn't agree more... I'd shrink that time horizon of 10 years about in half...

Lovato and Lieto picking up on each other and trying to be funny is incredibly annoying. Jesus.

I'm in the UK so I'm aware of the French Grand Prix and now Super league. If it was me I'd stick around in ITU purely for financial reasons as both of these secondary circuits pay way better. Drug testing is way better in the Olympic system as well.

I was one of those dorks who ran along with Gomez in Chicago '14 for a bit. That shit hurt...dude wasn't even showing any sign of feeling it. Just a different sport.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

I think that is why the likes of LS and SK as so popular - a lot of age groupers can relate to being the "uber biker/crap swimmer"

Also I'm pretty confident LS would not have won today. Maybe a medal but given SK's swim I think he'd have been too far back for even that.

A minute separates Ben and Tim with just over 2 miles left. 2nd is gonna be close.

lol@age grouper trying to pace with Kanute.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Speaking of age groupers, how bout that guy hanging on Kanute for a bit. Would be awesome to have him chime in here on how it was. hehe

Gomez is an absolute beast. I cannot fathom running that fast in a 70.3. I'm bummed he wasn't able to race Rio last year because he truly could have been the one to "do it all". Great race for Kanute today as well.

Based on that podium, I think the myth of ITU not translating to long course is thoroughly busted.

Awesome on Ben to hold off Tim Don.

I thought that was awesome! Dude was way out there in front of most of the other age groupers, running alone, and hangs with kanute for at least a mile. All the while the announcers are bagging on the guy. "dont do it bro"

In my opinion, that's pretty messed up for the announcers to do. I think they're forgetting that the age groupers are the ones that pay for the sport, and the announcers, not the pros, and that they wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for age groupers.

Whoever that age grouper guy was, that was a pretty studly effort he put in.

Awesome race overall. Javi totally deserved that win and ran the race perfect in my opinion huge props to Kanute as well

Gomez ran 1.10.30.
Knaute 1.16.24
Tim Don 1.13.05
Appleton 1.14.41
Kienle 1.16.04

SK looked pissed by the finish line. Looked like he only congratulated Ben?

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Ben was just awesome. What a fantastic race by him going hard from the gun. Chapeau!

The question is: how the hell do you beat Javier?
If you go hard on the swim (like Ben did), he'll just sit on your feet doing drill and wasting zero energy (like he did).
Hammer the bike to get a gap and he'll just stay with the group knowing that he can outrun the whole field.
What an amazing athlete.

The biking in ITU has evolved on the mens side to the point that most guys have an FTP of over 5w/kg. So for someone like Gomez that's 340w minimum - probably higher as he's one of the stronger cyclists.

Compare that to LS or SK and it probably compares favourably, certainly in w/kg. Given their lack of ability on the swim, their higher absolute power will only really matter on pancake flat course like The Championship.

So when you consider all of this, and the superior running ability, it's only really a case of getting aero on a TT bike to be competitive straight away.

Spot on Dave. Totally agree!!

I noticed that too. He only congratulated Kanute and walked past Don and Gomez.

Kanute was awesome. Gomez and Don def raced ITU style... swim hard, sit in on the bike then run hard. Sucked to watch as a Sebi fan

It's a very good question. I don't think the way to beat him is to go gun to gun... I think the only way someone's going to beat him is if they are and even better runner, if that exists in Triathlon, and sort of play his game. Tail/comserve energy on the swim, hop on the same bike train but dont take pulls at the front, and then outrun him. I just don't know if anybody has the chops to do that when he is on.


Truly a fantastic race to watch.

He can't have any complaints. He gave the guys at the front a 3-4 min head start out of the swim. And to close the gap as quick as he did in the first third of the bike may explain the sub par run. The other guys were never gonna take a turn on the bike. Why would they? As long as they are 12m behind he can't be pissed.

Agreed.

Dan Stubleski just ran a 1:15:23 in the AG ranks!!

Started the run in 2nd about 7 minutes behind James Burke. Will finish ahead by (I'm guessing 5 minutes).

Great results by both these two!!

Also agree. It's getting to the point where doing the bike on a trainer is the only way to make people happy.

It's a race, you race the course, you race others to enable you to make the most of your best attributes.

It's also a triathlon, Kienles problem is his slow swim, not bike packs at 12m distance.

"Way more successful"? I totally disagree.

Agree bluefever, spot on with your comment on the swim and racing the race and your competitors, but would still advocate for 20 meter distance.

Let me explain my rationale.

Word on the street here in the UK is that this recent hip operation is the last throw of the dice for AB in terms of injuries. It's amazing he's had so much success at ITU given the injury problems he's had over the past 5 years. But I think he knows he won't get away with that at 70.3 and especially Ironman. So staying injury free is one factor, which I dont think he can do.

Secondly given what he's said publically since the championship, it seems his love for ITU and Tokyo hasn't dimmed. Juggling full Ironman with ITU and being successful in both is going to be impossible. I think he'll stay until Tokyo.

Lastly Kona. Those conditions will seriously diminish AB's potential in the world championship race. Yeh he can definitely win it. But the chances are not 3 or 4 times.

Gomez has shown alot more consistancy in his career which has been rewarded with 8 world titles (5 ITU, 2 70.3, 1 Xterra). While I don't think he's hit quite the heights AB has (see London 2012) he's only a baw hair behind.

So I think given his robustness, consistency, sole focus on non drafting and what he's already achieved at 70.3, I can see JG being considerably more sucessful over the piece.

That guy...he's just a machine. Total testament to what consistent long hours (combined with genetic gifts) can do. Dude played hoops in high school.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

How about my teammate Ricky Flynn who just took the Amateur win from Dan in 4:10 with a 1:11:19 run. Previous Olympic Trials runner turned triathlete. Fastest run after Gomez as far as I know and he regularly goes under 5 minute/miles in our local races.

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Adam Feigh
Pianko Law, Speed Hound, Castelli, Sailfish, Base
Feighathlon.com

Given Ben's limited time racing 70.3 seems like he needs a year or 2 and then just execute his race plan...

The only think left for Gomez is for him to win Hawaii. Really he has multiple championships at every distance and a medal in the Olympics. Brownlee will not win Hawaii if Gomez is there.

How many people have run 1:10 in a Half Iron. I ask because I am impressed with that run today as it seems amazingly fast.

Triathlon's problem is the sport doesn't favour strong cyclists. I'd love to see a 20m draft zone for the pro race. If you're not willing to work on the bike, that's fine, it should show on your bike split time. It's boring as hell watching this train of uber runners sit in on the bike.

I'd like to see the modest bikers/uber runner rolling the dice either by sitting in a 20m draft train and watching guys like SK ride away, hoping they can catch them, OR by working hard to close the gaps on the bike, and maybe hampering their otherwise stellar runs. I think that would be a far more entertaining race to watch. The way it is now, there's really no point in watching once the bike groups have developed.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I'm a big AB fan, but have to agree.

To add to your opinion, he gave the impression (at least to me) in interviews after St George and Samorin that he found long distance racing a bit dull - he said a few times likes close racing, and missed that aspect in HIM.

I think this may be a factor also.

20m would certainly be better.

I think another issue is the stupid passing rule to prevent cutting in. It encourages people to keep the gaps to a minimum and discourages passing - if there is a line of 12 people, hardly any can make a pass without destroying their race due to the power they need to hold for minutes on end. So they sit in at 11.5m to hold station, not being able to do anything.

Yes the gladiatorial aspect of ITU is something he definitely enjoys. I also think he detests the "scene" that exists in long course racing (headbands, compression socks, flurescent clothing).

You could say that cycling in general doesnt reward strong cyclists. Strong cyclists become domestiques or TT specialists.

A 20m drafting rule would be preferable but unfortunately I think with regards to JG, JF, AB it wouldn't make any difference. They would still beat the uber bikers 9/10 if fully fit.

I agree with both of the points in bold above.

Triathlon doesn't favour strong cyclists??

Unless your names are Brownlee, Gomez, Frodeno, Kienle!

Is there anything stopping 20m draft zones being a reality in IM races for pros? Could they just extend it or is it more complex than that?

I would take SK's name off that list.

The other three are super human freaks, athletes that come around once or twice a decade. They are also the most well rounded athletes in the sport.

Maybe I should have said triathlon doesn't favour strong cycling efforts. Why roll the dice and maybe blow up your run when you can sit it on the bike? I'd like to see athletes tested on all legs of the race, not just the first and third. I think the sport would be more exciting if one or two sport specialists had more of an honest chance.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

amazing run especially on that course!!

amazing run for anyone. For a guy who is 41......

I guess we are forgetting the challenge championship that had 20m draft zone.......what happened to the 2 itu stars in that race?

I would disagree with that to an extent, but I can see where you are coming from. Strong bike efforts can be rewarded (SK's first Kona win, AB/JB in Rio/Leeds) but %wise breaks usually fail.

Where I would disagree is that I don't think 1/2 sport specialists should have more of an honest chance. Part of the reason SK is such a strong cyclist is probably also why he isn't a top level runner and is a crappy swimmer. I'd rather see well rounded athletes win like JG, AB or any top 10 ITU guys (of which BK arguably isn't).

One of many reasons I say make drafting legal. The only folks who really push what you offer are folks who cannot swim, or run, so they really are not complete triathletes like Gomez is. Our sport is not uber bikers, it is triathlon. So with drafting legal, it forces folks to have to learn to swim. Still have a great bike, and then have to have a great run. The ITU guys, and gals, are the complete triathlete, which is all that maters. I sure do not care about a single leg of our sport.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Athlete tracker is a joke

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

On that pancake flat course SK & LS would always have an advantage due to w/kg being irrelevant, and the focus being on pure watts. Their 6-10 kg advantage translates into alot.

Also only one ITU star was there and he messed up the final 10 miles of the bike.Should have bided his time and smoked LS on the run.

Great post.

The dynamics of an ITU race mean that you CANNOT have a weakness, otherwise you'll miss the selection for the run. It is essentially an elimination race. I've raced draft legal and it is way harder than a non drafting race. I'd love to see someone like LS thrown into the middle of an ITU bike leg to see if he could hang on. I wouldn't be surprised if he got dropped.

agreed

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I considered RM an ITU star but i guess opinions differ....

Ha ha I'll give you that.

I love the ITU guys. But when I turn on an Ironman broadcast or look at results I want to know who could cover the distance the fastest on their own. If I wanted to watch a tactical race with extremly fast times I'd watch ITU races. I don't watch ITU for the same reason that I only watch cycling on mountain stages or TT's - it doesnt really show who's the strongest. It shows who can play the game the best. Just my opinion.....

What happened to Jenson Button? Splits looked solid then nothing after the second run split? Lost his chip or DNF?

Fair enough, I just think you underestimate the biking ability of the ITU guys.

Folks that think any triathlon race is doing it on their own just is racing something different. They all draft on the swim so right there, our sport was never setup to race on their own. Bike has always had drafting, and always will. Again, my experience is the only folks who complain are the ones who cannot swim and or run. And these top bikers were nothing in real bike racing, so they complain about it in triathlon instead.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Fair enough. I guess what I'm getting at is I would like the draft train benefit to be reduced as I feel it is bad for the pro aspect of the sport. I think that opens up the playing field for better racing dynamics, when you have various strengths competing against one another. Frodo, Brownlee, Gomez etc are true studs and while it is awe inspiring to see what they can do, it's pretty boring to watch in long course. I think we would see the best races when the stud runners come in to T2 thinking they probably biked too hard, and the stud riders wondering if they're running at their peak to hold on. I think triathlon would do itself a favour by rewarding more gutsy performances. Think of guys like Steve Larson, Starky, LS, etc. Those guys push things to the brink and make for exciting races. It's no wonder they had/have huge fan bases. Think of Rinny on the women's side, running down all of the women (and some of the men!) at Kona for a come from behind victory.

Strong swimmers have their advantage on their leg of the race, strong runners theirs, but strong bikers are kind of handicapped in this regard.

Anyways, interesting discussion to have, though I doubt the rules will change any time soon.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

"Based on that podium, I think the myth of ITU not translating to long course is thoroughly busted. "

Alternatively, couldn't it be said that the ITU guys are changing the definition of long course? They complete a half Ironman at such speeds that it only leaves the full distance as long course?

I totally agree that it would be way more exciting to see a substanially more chaotic version of racing! Having imperfect athletes gives the race a see-saw dynamic that is exciting to watch.

The problem with Ironman racing from a spectating point of view is it's such a slow burn. I quite happily watch an 8-9 hour race, but most people don't have the patience.

I think a way to reward individual discipline specialists and to make good TV is to look at what they have done with super league triathlon. By trying different racing formats, it has given the swim or cycle guys a chance to win as well as packaging the whole thing in a neat 2 hour window.

[/quote]"Based on that podium, I think the myth of ITU not translating to long course is thoroughly busted. "

Alternatively, couldn't it be said that the ITU guys are changing the definition of long course? They complete a half Ironman at such speeds that it only leaves the full distance as long course?[/quote]
I think the ITU guys are starting to redfine the race dynamics of the 70.3 distance. It is being raced like an extended ITU race, in that it is essentially an elimination race.

I have a feeling the full Ironman distance is the only place where the longer distance guys can be safe from this. Not all ITU guys will make the transition to the full distance successfully, due to the duration and the distance's unique quirks. I dont think the same can be said for the 70.3 distance. There is just too much overlap.

Do you realize that Kienle beat Gomez at 2015 70.3 world's with the fastest run split of the day?

I said it during the bike course today. The entire group with Javier and Don were able to follow Kienle because the moto was behind and diagonally off filming Kienle giving them a massive draft to stay attached, when Kienle had made up 4 minutes in the first half. How do you lose 4 minutes or so in just over half the race and then magically lose none for the rest. It is not possible without pushing less air. Change that assistance and the picture changes.

See my thread about ditching Moto's in favour of drones :-).

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

Do you realise JG was ill that day?

Please don't compare SK and JG running ability. They are not on the same level. Go back a year earlier in Mont Tremblant for case in point.

On a side note I have just seen SK's take on the race on facebook. Classy guy as always. Just needs to get faster on the swim.

I never said that Kienle is a better runner than Javier but on a given day if the others get less moto assist, kienle is on for running and the fastest runners are even a bit off, it is game on. Kienle is a superlative biker and still one of the best off the bike runners in 70.3 to 140.6 when other have to push the ride. If they can get a pull from motos, Kienle has no chance. Tim Don is not even in the same zip code at the finish line when he has to push wind all the way like he has to in Kona.

And coming off the swim 4 min down is just too much for anyone. Kienle needed a partner early to tag team up to others also tag teaming against him. Just watch what happens in Kona. Don won't even be close at T2.

I agree. That's likely why SK was pissed after the race. Javi may have prevailed in the end but the moto likely cost Sebi a podium.

I think TD will be better in Kona this year, but yeh he ain't top 3 material. That being said motos and 12m draft will still exist in Kona, but then again you have the winds.

If SK swims like today over 3.8k he will get obliterated. But I still have him down for a podium as he cant be that bad in 2 big races on the bounce. Whats your top 3 for Kona?

Class guy for sure, but at this point, I doubt Kienle can get faster on the swim. After this many years racing pro, he has likely maximized his swim improvements. The guys who are faster all grew up swimming. Kienle has basically picked all the fruit off the tree that an adult onset swimmer can. Low hanging fruit, middle or tree, almost top of the tree is all picked over. This swim with a decent upsteam with fresh water with no wetsuit is the worst combo an adult onset swimmer can face. That's racing. Last year, wetsuit in salt water is best case for adult onset swimmer. Kona no wetsuit, but salt water and no real upstream current (although you can end up on a treadmill if the tide is pulling out) is in the middle. Lionel made the right strategic move saving it for Kona, but maybe if Lionel was here, and if he could close to Kienle, the two benefit off each other. Not sure Lionel would have closed to Kienle as he'd have a slightly tougher time in the current.

In any case it's racing. This type of swim will hurt an adult onset swimmer. Everyone knew that going in. I would have loved to see what Ben Kanute and Josh Amberger could have done together on the swim-bike. If Ben had company, it may have also been interesting. Ben did an entire day of racing pushing his own wind. Big kudos to that guy.

I think the main reason you push drafting is that you're a really good runner and a self admitted poor swimmer and biker.

As your stated, our sport is Triathlon, which is theoretically, in long course, an individual time trial across all three elements, with some legal drafting happening during the swim.

I don't think there's much scope for improvement either unfortunately. He is limited in that sense.

Kona will be interesting in the sense that SK and LS could do some damage but you're still going up against a massive train up front.

BK is a guy who has really impressed me in ITU over the last 2 years and is doing the same at 70.3. He may have now found his niche. Still young which is very encouraging. Most hit non drafting racing when they realise they aren't good enough for ITU or are past their prime. BK is not in either category.

Looks like he did the first loop along the river and called it a day. Went from 6:30 pace to 8:00 pace in the first 3 miles.

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Sylvan Smyth | http://www.sportstats.asia | sylvan@sportstats.asia | Starvas

What are the Age Group awards quantity? 3 or 5.

I wonder what folks think about racing Moats at the race.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Will they do a highlight package of this race and make it available on youtube?

i wanna say 5 but could be 10 being a WC.

M30-34 ran almost as fast as Gomez, beat Ryan Giuliano. Crazy fast and not much race history, future pro?

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

There were 2 guys in the 60-64 that finished with the exact same time. So, do both get 5th?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Nm, answered my own question. This guy is a former running star and convicted felon :)

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

What were the charges?

Fishbum wrote:

What were the charges?

sorry, meant to paste. embezzlement. stole goods from a running store and sold them online

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/marathoner-sentenced-in-embezzlement-from-lynchburg-running-store/article_81ab9f3f-9a0f-558d-9ace-0cc4edffb679.html

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Do they end up putting the full length videos from the live coverage online?

tri312 wrote:

Do they end up putting the full length videos from the live coverage online?

Yes.


http://www.ironman.com/...ship70.3m&y=2017

So he's probably good at running, right?

I can't locate the Age group results. How am missing these.

I don't think Kienle is an AOS as I've read that he's been racing triathlons since age 12. This only makes it more unlikely that he would be able to drop 240 sec/19 = 12.6 sec per 100 m off his 1900 m swim given his 21-22 years of swimming. *Ass-u-ming* he has worked equally hard on all three disciplines, it would *appear* that perhaps he simply has less innate swim talent than bike and run talent. Very few people have equal talent in all three.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Standout performance for me was Kanute. We all knew about Gomez, Kienle, Don etc. and they all did what we expect of them.

Just a few months ago at St George BK lost 5 mins on the bike to Kienle and now he's riding at the same level plus he's the best swimmer in the field and he's only what -24?! This guy could be the next Craig Walton but better. He still has time for a lot more bike improvement, next season he could combine Potts swimming ability with Stadler bike speed, then Gomez will really have to run fast!

I think this is the biggest takeaway from this 70.3 season, and yesterday's race highlighted it.
At the very top, 70.3 is no longer raced as long course, it is basically a non-draft Olympic. The top dudes are racing pretty much all-out from the gun, there is not much pacing going on.
Hence, at the WC level you pretty much cannot have a weakness or you won't win.

Don't forget though that Javi is somewhat new to focusing on 70.3 (assuming he continues to going forward) and is able to swim with Kanute. I assume his bike will improve as well. 70.3's future looks potentially exciting!

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"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne

What do I win?

Just bummed that Sanders (smartly) didn't race and get exposed. He might have even cracked the top 10!

It ALMOST seems like you need to be able to swim and run in this sport to win a world championship...

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Really all you need to be is the best runner. That's what this race showed.

I had a feeling guys like Gomez/Don/Appleton just got through the climb then eased off waiting for Sebi to come by and tow them to T2. So I put this together and it confirms my suspicions. Especially Gomez, lol. More power to him to know he could run Ben down.

Ben was the big winner from this strategy as it allowed him to build such a big lead on the bike only Gomez could run him down. I'm guessing if these guys were willing to put their noses into the wind at all that Ben would not have gotten on the podium.

Looks like Sebi really did get pissed and stopped pulling everyone. He was putting time into Ben until he caught the group.

But Ben putting that much time into even Sebi on the climb is quite impressive. I'm guessing he's a smaller dude than Sebi?

I didn't see how it played out. Did Gomez get dropped on the climb and look like he was chilling and waiting for a pack to catch him?

Seems like he didn't see Kanute as a threat and let him get away and played it to beat Keinle.

Would love to see Gomez vs Kienle's power profile for the ride. But if you can get out of the water first and run 1:10, it gives you a LOT more options of how you want to play the bike leg.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Sebi's plan was to go hard on the climb if the gap was small, and more mellow on the climb when the gap after the swim was big. He then wanted to power on the top.

I'm not sure if Kanute had a faster transition or just dropped Gomez right away but Gomez was 20 sec back at 5 miles before the climb.

And funny you mention Sanders. If he had been in this race I don't think the "bike pack" would have waited for him to tow them to T2 like they did with Sebi, as I'm not sure many of them except for Gomez think they could beat him in a foot race.

100% agree. Anyone in that pack was thinking 2nd or 3rd was possible if Keinle burned too many matches and Kanue came back to the field. One of those things happens.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Ben "dropped" Javier right from T1. He just sit on the bike and put the hammer down while Javier started the bike way easier.

I think Ben's race plan was to push the swim and bike as hard as he could and hold on for the run. He executed it brilliantly and I can't imagine even he and his coach thought it would result in 4 minutes up going into the run.

As for Javi, I have to think his plan was to simply swim as hard as anyone else was willing to (Kanute) as the 70.3 swim is really nothing for the front pack ITU swimmers, ride "his" numbers on the bike until the chase pack caught him then sit in the chase pack and stay there if he could. Again, I have to think he wasn't expecting to have over 4 minutes to make up on anyone, especially once Sebi joined the chase.

Two guys executing different strategies that actually ended up working out for both. Made the race great to watch.

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"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne

Awesome to see him keep 2nd and I was thinking the same as they were dissecting his running... he's looked like that every time I've seen him run.

Gomez did have an awful T2, I was watching that bunch come in and he wasn't the only one fumbling about. There was a guy in a blue kit that dropped something, turned around, turned around again... seemed like he was wasting a bunch of time. In a half I guess it's not super important as evident by Gomez running through the time lost and then some.

I also found it rather odd that the announcers seemed to be talking about the pack essentially drafting and athletes getting upset with one another if one is doing more work than the other... etc. Granted this is the first 70.3 stream I've watched so that could just me never having "heard" it before.

They're not supposed to be drafting, this isn't ITU or TdF.

I like all the "studies" coming out that show there actually is a benefit riding behind someone. Even at TWELVE meters!!! No shit.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

I just notice that an AGer out-swam Kanute by 7 seconds:



Looks like this dude is a former French Open Water champion. Good job.

Lol,

I think if you look at the video that's the same guy who ran with him for a couple miles!

Maurice

Is it, really? LOL!

That is an awesome swim. But us age groupers got to wear wetsuits.

Well Lionel thinks it's an issue, that's why he did ITU Long Distance WC rather than 70.3 WC.

So to me the issue is and what I laugh at is when athletes bring this up, fans call them out for sucking at swimming or just wanting it to be in favor of their strength and they miss the entire point.

Under current rules the draft zone currently is blurring "draft legal" and "non draft". And Imo we have the potential to widen the draft zone to make it more "non draft", which I think is the biggest point of what LS is on (and why he skipped 70.3). Do we want a more realistic "non draft" where you have to put in a good honest effort in each discipline or do you want it to be where if you can make the draft train, you can "sit in" til T2, and if you want to call that "non draft".....oookkk. It's why I laugh when people shit on LS and tell him to shut up and swim faster, etc., and yet the point he's making completely goes over their head.

If races think the current rules allow for the best "non draft" race especially for the pros, fair enough. I think it's being shown that other distances make a much fairer and individual effort, and at some point, races that don't move to that distance, likely should have to answer to why they don't do the same. Atleast have a good conversation about it, and maybe that's already happened and the current rules are going to always be the "compromised" appropriate distance.

But I think you as a sport have an problem when some of your own best 70.3 athletes are not doing races because of the way the rules are setup. Now again I'm not saying this to make it in favor of strong cyclists. I'm actually looking to make in favor of more actual fair "non draft" conditions. And yes I know there is always going to be a benefit and there has never been an true "individual" race ever because of the drafting in the swim and run, etc. But I think if you understand the sport, to simply ridicule athletes like I've seen on ST over the past year or 2 when talking drafting issues in the sport is completely missing the boat. No shit poor swimmers need to work on their swim, they'll be the first to say that. But let's look at BK, a wider draft zone likely improves his overall racing as well, as it "tires" out the draft train who is chasing him down on the runs at every race. So a more wider draft zone isn't for LS so he can win. It's to make it what we all think it should be....a more fairer, "non draft" race.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Great points Brooks. This is analagous to the points jersey in the Vuelta. In the rest of the grand tours the points Jersey is really a sprinter competition that was created to give the non climbing fast closers another race to participate in. Basically none of the top sprinters come to the Vuelta due to lack of pure sprinter stages and the structure of the points race which is basically another jersey for the GC guys making it redundant. In that vein, the 70.3 Worlds with its depth of field is in effect a watered down extension of ITU racing rather than a shorter faster version of Ironman racing (already pseudo draft legal at Kona, but closer to a non draft race than 70.3 Worlds).

At other non championship races with less depth of field you can have the 12 meter draft zone and it works so those who do a descent 3 discipline day can shine, or as a minimum, everyone can get the most out of their strong discipline. In championship racing at 70.3 World's you now take the top 3-4 from every race and put them all together and you have 50 guys who are equally strong filling all the gaps between each other and loosely you have an ITU-esque train of some form.

Last year, a fast rider like Kienle had less gap to make up with a salt water wetsuit swim. This year, no wetsuit, fresh water and up current and he's got a tougher swim, with a larger gap where he uses his legs more in the swim and uses his legs more before he closes, leaving less potential legs for the run. Make that draft zone 20m like Challenge Samourin, and the picture changes big time and all athletes have to work harder on each discipline.

So, a bunch of guys don't go this race, just like a bunch of sprinters can't bother with the Vuelta. I don't think the Vuelta organizers care to have much of a sprinter competition and it almost feels like WTC does not care to have a tougher bike leg where the pros are strung out further. It should be dead easy to say, "OK, tomorrow, we're doing 20m draft zone for pros". Done. End of story. How hard is that to switch to and it should be EASIER to enforce

it almost feels like WTC does not care to have a tougher bike leg where the pros are strung out further. It should be dead easy to say, "OK, tomorrow, we're doing 20m draft zone for pros". Done. End of story. How hard is that to switch to and it should be EASIER to enforce

-------

Like I said, I just want to know the reason why it's not 20m. Like if it's current rules because they say it should be that distance; fine....I'm cool with that, but then I think you open yourself up to questions about "honest" racing (which is what LS is doing). If they think this is the fair/compromised distance, great; and by them using this as the distance that in essence what they are saying.


And like I said, I'm not in favor of helping cyclists or doing this for LS. BK actually benefits as much or greater in a "fairer" draft distance than a guy like LS, because he's already at the front of the field. Let's make these guys work for it, if we want to truly appreciate LC aka "non-draft" racing. But if people don't think it's a problem with the current setup, that's cool as well. I just think these athletes who are questioning the rules do have a legitimate leg to stand on, and not a "they are wankers they need to shut up and train more" response like from the ST peanut gallery.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

We didn't have the "exact same time". John finished ahead of me by .22 sec. He had a fantastic run. My hats off to him!

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Putting LS and SK aside for a moment, (or before them Hellriegel, Stadler, Sindballe, Lieto etc etc etc), it really is a shame when the faster swim-biking athletes are doomed out of the gate (none of the guys I mentioned above, were fast swim-biker....just fast bikers). Ben Kanute's chance of the win was basically removed by the rules. Josh Amberger has the same issue in almost every race he does with any deep field. He's going to swim-bike really fast, but if there are enough guys at 12 meters behind him, they will leap frog each other until they close before T2, or have a minimized gap at T2. There seems to be no logical reason why Ironman cannot make the championship draft zone 20m. It's like the refs in the Stanley cup playoffs who enforce things differently because it is the playoffs to keep the teams honest. This should be possible in triathlon. In regular season racing with less depth of field, 12 m works fine.

I agree. I just read the results when posted and they said you both had the same time. I had the same thing happen to me in Penticton.
Great race. Yep, John can run. It was fun racing with him in Penticton and running with him.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

One thing that is interesting is that a 20m draft zone takes off some "pressure" on the officials. Now I may get my hand slapped for saying this but I think currently 12m the athletes can "game" the 12m draft zone. And that's not meant to say officials are at fault or that the athletes are directly trying to "cheat". I think it's simply the reality of the situation of guys riding in a paceline at 26 mph and an official sitting beside/behind/ahead and trying to "measure" 12m. I would find it almost impossible to have 3 officials from the exact same viewpoint able to consistently come up with the same measurements on riders. Again this is not a knock on the officials, this is more in line to say, what if the average distance really is 11.78934m in between each rider? It's like in MLB the rulebook has a directly defined strike zone, yet what do we see. We have all kinds of different strike zones, and pitchers know who calls a "tight" zone and who are "pitcher friendly". And again, this is not a knock on them, this is the reality and exactly why I think in 10 years, MLB will be using robots/machines to call balls/strikes.

So a 20m zone allows for more margin of error that doesn't have as a direct impact on the benefits of the draft zone. A rider at 11.87m gets more draft than rider at 12.00m, and carry that to 20m, if the margin of error has the riders riding truly at 19.83m instead of 20m, that difference is less critical the further out you go in the draft zone.

So essentially 12m zone right now puts absolute critical importance on officials to measure 12m, 12m. And again if I get my hand slapped for that, ok fine. But I think we are seeing draft zone distance options, and if we can discuss these things, great. So again, I'm not saying officials are doing a bad job. I actually think they are having to hold a standard that I don't think can be held in the current dynamics at this point in the development of the sport. You have what 6-8 guys all in a paceline, and 1 or 2 guys is suppose to sit there and watch and know that every single athlete is staying at 12m....that's just unrealistic, so then things start creeping up.

And finally yes it's the athlete's "responsibility" to know the rules and to ride 12m and not "creep up", and when they do they are "cheating" whether they get caught or not. But what I'm suggesting is that if 12m is a very tight window to actually measure for both athlete/official, why not decrease the margin of error and help both in the process?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So that was a long winded response basically to advise having an discussion of the pros/cons of both a 12m and 20m draft zone, and why one is chosen over the other. Again, if 12m is going to be the chosen distance, great, everyone will continue to deal with it as currently seen. I

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I see what you did there.... ;)

:)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

All you guys arguing for a different draft zone and how unfair this 12m is, what do you think the result of this race should have been?

As I see it the best overall triathlete won, a super swimmer/biker went out on a flier and got paid off with 2nd, solid ex ITU guy who has moved up quite profitably gets 3rd, and guys that lose 4 minutes in the swim or blow up fill out many of the next places. Seems to me it was a pretty fair race all around and the results reflect that.

There is nothing wrong with a 12m draft zone if enforced. What did Keinle think after hammering and closing 4 minutes, that everyone else was hammering in front of him? No they were just riding a comfortable pace waiting for him to catch, and be ready to match his pace afterwards. That is why he cannot break them at this junction in the race, he is toasted a bit from the chase, and everyone else is fresh and ready to up their watts to match his pace. He can't get mad because Gomez doesnt come to the front to set pace, why would he? He is the best runner in the race by far, why chance a blow up on the bike? That is like getting mad at some guy in a break at the TDF, for not pulling when his teammate has the yellow jersey in the peloton and 2nd place is in that break. Some things just don't make sense, and Gomez ever setting pace when the group is all together, is one of those just doesn't make sense scenarios. Silly to get mad about that. Javier is not Keinle's domestic, now if Sanders had been there it is a whole different situation. They could have traded pace and broke the group off of them and changed the dynamic. But he wasn't there so you have to play the cards dealt on the day..

The best triathletes are winning the big races, how it ought to be. If you lose 4 minutes in a swim you probably are not the best triathlete under any circumstances, sorry guys but just too many that lose no time who can also bike and run like monsters..

Haile Gebrselassie won in 28:02 in the 10k road race Tim Don ran that it.

Do you think the guys in the "bike pack" would have rode differently if it was 20m not 12m? What about Gomez, do you think he would have soft pedaled until the pack caught him if it was 20m?

Monty, I'm not doing this for any result changing, but for truer "non-draft" racing (if that's possible). Your comments on how the race dynamics played out, is what athletes have suggested; is there any other ways to make it more "non-draft" or are we stuck at 12m and just having to deal with the draft pack tactics that you just detailed. So again, I'm asking is 12m the most fair possible draft solution we can have. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, I just know that events have made 20m work in the past, so if works there, why cant it work elsewhere.......

Your in the camp that 12m is good enough, great. I'm in the camp it's not if there are other options that are being used throughout LC racing, why we cant talk about implementing those in these championship level races.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Even with a 20m draft zone SK (or LS) will still burn most of their matches in the first 30km, if they shed 3min+ on the swim. So while they will no doubt have a better chance to get some form of gap leading into the run, they'll still be in massive trouble come the run due to work done earlier and the lack of run ability (compartively to ITU type runners).

Like it or not I think the end is near for 2 discipline athletes in 70.3 with or without a 20m draft zone.

In my mind, 20m makes the bike portion of the race more significant and dangerous. I want guys like Gomez having to pull on the bike, or otherwise give up a big gap going in to T2. Right now there is no incentive to really race the bike if you are an Uber runner. It makes for boring racing. It would be nice to see the Uber runners out of their comfort zone during the bike, as I think it would lead to more drama and uncertainty on the run.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

So what you are saying is that the sport is evolving right? So it's only fair to suggest with that evolution, does the drafting rules need to be adjusted as well?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Not sure the race was boring or predictable. I know Gomez was going to win before the start, but didn't know what the rest of the podium would look like until Kanute was a mile from the finish.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Your in the camp that 12m is good enough, great. I'm in the camp it's not if there are other options that are being used throughout LC racing, why we cant talk about implementing those in these championship level races. //

No I get what you are driving at, I just don't think it will make one bit of difference, as the real advantage is mental pacing and just plain race tactics. If you go to 20 meters in big races with a lot of guys, you will most likely still have the trains, just much, much longer. this will make it exponentially harder for marshals to work the group. 12m is tough enough with 10+ guys, but put the lead group in Hawaii of 20+ together at 20m apart, you would need 5 different Marshall motor to even come close to being able to see everyone. And with the abilities of todays riders I just don't see them dropping off the 20m zone if they were also capable of holding the 12m zone.


It will also make the ride a little less interesting as there will be less passing going on. A guy is a lot less likely to attack from 3rd or 4th position if he has to go 80m just to get to the front. I think a 20m zone would also cause a ton more of "slotting in", which I really don't like. It just interrupts guys flow and if you really don't go to the front, it is just kind of a nuisance to guys riding. Of course you would have to adjust all the passing times too, so just giving guys more time to dick around, and if they can't finish their moves, then just slot in..And all that movement has to be watched up close, so you are just going to need a shitload more marshals out there, which we all know is not going to happen..

So what you are saying is that the sport is evolving right? So it's only fair to suggest with that evolution, does the drafting rules need to be adjusted as well? //

Well since they began with a 5m zone and that has opened up several times over the years, I would say the sport has evolved in this regard, and quite a bit. But at some point you have to say enough is enough, we can't even see two guys in the frame anymore. So maybe under some conditions at 12m a guy saves a few watts, most of the time it is nothing because of a crosswind, tailwind, or just not the ideal conditions that this distance gets tested at. Whatever it is, it is much less than a swim draft, and less than the run draft. The entire race has some element of drafting, always has, always will. I think we have hit the upper zone of minimizing the bike draft to the point where it really won't make any difference in how guys race, or how they end up in those races.


Now if some race wants a 20m zone then fine, do it. But make sure you don't have 50 top pros and just a couple marshals to work it. If you put it up then you got to finish the job and make it right. And while you are at it make sure you have one dedicated Marshall for the lead rider the entire race too, want to talk about cheating watts, that is the low hanging and biggest fruit..

this right here

They possibly do need adjusted to 20m, purely to see what it does to race dynamics over a year or two's worth of racing.

From what I understand of a top 20 ITU power profile, I honestly don't think it'll make much of a difference to the end results, aprart from pancake flat courses. On a St George or Chattanoga type course, it makes no difference to the end result.

I just will continue to smile when I see some folks bitching about "drafting" on the bike. Where is the bitching and solutions to stop drafting on the swim. But I get it, so many cannot swim so they need their wetsuits and drafting so they do not look so bad. And if they could run, ........

Yep, the best TRIATHLETE won, again.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

https://www.swissside.com/...e-deal-with-drafting

Well they begin their study with this premise, which of course is wrong on so many levels.

"Triathlon is intended to be an individual’s race where there is no team support, no external help, just the athlete against themselves and the elements."

It is not an individual race, usually you are racing with 100's in your direct vicinity. And it can absolutely be a team sport, lots of teams of convince formed out on the race course, just like in cycling races. You don't have to wear the same jersey, just have a common goal where you can help each other within the rules. Been like that since day one, so don't give me this historical nonsense that the sport was meant to be a pure time trial. Now of course we have made some rules to limit that type of team racing, like husband and wives, coaches and athletes, etc., cannot collude within a race. But perfect strangers can come together and do all sorts of team tactics to move their positions forward durning the race..


And I would challenge the results of their study, not that it is wrong, just the actual differences. And like I said, most of the bike courses I have ridden and see today do not lend themselves to this perfect and static air conditions.


In short, a triathlon is a race with rules, you follow those rules and you raced the race. You can change the rules if you want, but it was never meant to be a complete TT in any of the 3 sports..

Mark, this is why I just smile when I see these posts. They always ignore that there is real drafting in the swim that can save tons of time. And even some on the run.

At Penticton, I did the sprint du and was running head to head with a guy in my AG, John Hill, that does not happen at local races. So, knew he was a stud.

So when we raced the std du together, I said to myself, I cannot beat him in the 10K, so why use energy trying. So I ran the entire first 10K on his butt, assuming I might get a little positive impact on using less energy.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I agree with you. I will take it further. At 20 m whether an athlete rides at 20 or 18 will make almost no difference. At 12 vs 10, it makes more difference. This takes the pressure off the officials without changing the outcome of the race. It will be pretty obvious in a 20m race is a rider is racing at 15 meters-17m. Outside that at 17+ you won't need to call it unless you want to take out the measuring stick on someone who you already saw racing at 12-17 for too long and is now closer to the limit at 18-20. You can call this guy sitting at 18-20 but for the guys riding pretty clean and then just did not keep their head up and encroached, you can just give them a warning and tell them to make the pass.

I've said this several times before and I'm going to bring it up again. The draft zone should be based off of time and not distance. The size of the draft zone is largely a function of how fast you move. Therefore, if a draft zone is based off of time, it will automatically scale for the proper distance based off of the respective riding speed of the athlete. Furthermore, neither the officials nor the athletes have the tools to properly measure 12 meters whereas they all have easy access to a stopwatch. This makes it easier for athlete to comply with the rules and easier to enforce.

This course was made to break up the field- currents, non-wetsuit swim, hills.

The fact that it didn't break up the field (to some people's liking) is interesting.

I think this kind of proves one of Monty's points. The real advantage to riding 12 m apart in a pace line is related to smoothing of pacing. It is not a "draft" in the common sense.

Spot on.

A little thought experiment:

Let's compare two riders- same height and weight.
Rider 1 - FTP 385
Rider 2 - FTP 360

Let's say that for pacing reasons it makes sense for both of them to ride in the same pace line.

At the end of the day it might appear that rider 2 benefited from the draft.
But wouldn't rider 1 be considerably fresher.