“you do not need to be a USAT referee to provide Presence. Presence is what gets the job done, in my experience.”

Or the perceived presence of an official. CDA O4 was as clean as any race I have seen. They had several USAT refs on Harleys which were easy to hear coming. But they had a number of people riding Harleys on the course who were not USAT ref’s as well. There are also a ton of people riding Harleys in CDA on the streets near the area. I think that is what made the race as clean as it was. You never went that long without hearing a Harley so the cheaters never felt safe to cheat.
Dave

the drafter . . . sat up and moves out of the zone

Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless the "drafter" is in the zone because he has just been passed, that is a violation.

To the extent you're saying that what many people perceive as drafting in violation of the rules really isn't, I agree.

http://tbfracing.com/events/tri4real3.html

they went to USAT sanctioning last year for their Olys

If I clip playing cards to my spokes, will my bike sound like a Harley?

Alan: i'm not sure i totally understand what you are asking.

to be honest, we just want to see constant movement among the racers, and no blatant wheel sucking. if not, moving or passing, at least racers staying 3 bike lengths apart. (BTW you can, quite legally, ride 3 bike lengths behind someone all live long day and not be penalized for drafting)

however, the second you encroach within the 3 bike length zone, you have 15 seconds to pass. if you fail to pass, and have to drop back, you had better get out of the zone in those 15 seconds because then you have drafted.

most normal people will hear the moto and get legal really fast. crazily enough, there are those who will not even budge even though the official is on the moto with a stopwatch 3 feet away from them.

What are the thoughts on this:

I am a BOP swimmer, but FOP cyclist so I typically pass a fair number of people on the bike. During yesterday's race, there was a fairly steady stream of people on the right and several times they were spaced fairly close such that I would make a pass on the left and would pass several of them before there was a clear stretch to pull back to the right. At about mile 3 a guy passes me on the left and then comes over to the right. The problem is we were very evenly matched pacewise so he couldn't pull away, but I would have to slow down in order to fall out of the drafting zone. What I did was rather than slow down, I moved slightly left so that I was out of his draft. For the entire bike, we leapfrogged each other several times, neither of us able to pull away. When we passed slower riders and I was behind him, he would pull to the left to pass, I would yell, "you're clear to come left" and then I would nudge a bit farther left to keep out of his draft. We didn't get passed by any other racers.

My question is this: We were fortunate not to get passed yesterday, but if there were people coming up from behind, would you consider my staying slightly to the left to avoid drafting, "blocking"? It was either that or risk a penalty for being in the drafting zone. I was intentionally trying not to draft or "work" with this guy, it was just we both had the same pace yesterday. There were plenty of times when I was ahead of him and then he would pass me back.

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I proudly DO NOT post my workouts on Facebook!!!

I guess my point is (and I'm not trying to derail this thread) that it's been my understanding that to enter the draft zone without passing in 15 seconds is a violation. In other words, if you enter the draft zone and then drop out, you're in violation, regardless of how long you've been in there. Am I wrong?

Now I understand that this may be difficult to call, and probably not worth the effort, especially if someone is sincerely trying to follow the rules. But if a ref were to spot someone in the draft zone that only backed off because of the ref's presence, he'd be right to issue a penalty. The ref's presence shouldn't necessarily signal a 15 second warning to back out of the draft zone -- if a drafter wants to avoid the penalty, he'd better pass.

Alan: oh, I get it... yes, you are correct, you must PASS in order to be OUT of the zone. remember that only 1 mm of your tire needs to go in front of the passed riders wheel for a pass to be complete, so it is now the passed riders responsibility to move back the 3 bike lengths.

that said, generally people do NOT like to be passed, and they will speed up and try to screw your attempted pass :) and technically, that would be a violation on your part.... but if that happens only once, generally we are not going to call it. however, if you are constantly encroaching in the zone, attempt to pass and then don't and drop back, you should get nailed.

My question is this: We were fortunate not to get passed yesterday, but if there were people coming up from behind, would you consider my staying slightly to the left to avoid drafting, "blocking"? It was either that or risk a penalty for being in the drafting zone. I was intentionally trying not to draft or "work" with this guy, it was just we both had the same pace yesterday. There were plenty of times when I was ahead of him and then he would pass me back.


That would be my question too. It seems that so long as you keep at least one meter to the left, you're not in his draft zone and, therefore, not drafting. But are you blocking? That might depend upon someone trying to pass you.

not true that you were out of the zone by moving left or right off his wheel. you were "staggering" which, while a nice attempt to avoid blatant drafting, isn't quite good enough.

draft zone is 3 bike lengths, front and back. you could drop back 20 feet and still be legal (and still get a draft)

and as long as you are passing other racers, you are not blocking. once a pass is completed, you move off to the right. staying left and impeding other racers is blocking.

I was there too. I played the draft zone tango all day, slingshotting everybody I could roll up on within 15sec, but always staying legal. saw one massive pack at around mile 40. a few women, lotsa guys, from shoulder to double yellow and 4-5 riders long from nose to tail. like someone dropped a cookie cutter punchout of the TdF peleton in the middle of a southern WI farm road.



nobody was talking. no calls of "on your left" or accusations of blocking or drafting. it took forever for me to drop back out of the zone at full coast (I wasn't willing to apply brakes) as they went by and nary a word.



as if that weren't amazing enough, not 10sec after I get 3 lengths back, Mr Moto rolls up and camps out right next to them. it was like something out of someone else's post in this thread: absolutely no reaction from the pack. nobody looked up. nobody panic-braked out of the zone before he could jot their # down. nothing.



I looked back at the 2-3 guys who were (legally) hanging off the back of this mess with me and we exchanged incredulous smiles and a few words of "can you believe that??"



other than that episode, I did deal with several blockers along the way but it was always amicable enough. a couple even apologized. imagine that.



Carl

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Carl Matson

"staying left and impeding other racers is blocking."

I completely agree, but as I said, I wasn't (yesterday). If staggering, is not permitted, the only thing to do is drop back 20 feet and sit there? If this is legal, I'm happy to do it, but it seems to undermine the whole rule, no?

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I proudly DO NOT post my workouts on Facebook!!!

Thanks.

Here's another question I've had. At Wildflower last year, I came up on a group of slower rders, some of whom were riding side by side. (Don't know and didn't care if they were drafting off each other.) Just as I enter the zone to pass, one moves over almost to the center line and, unintentionally, blocks me from passing. I yelled out once "on your left" hoping he'd move over. When he didn't, I then yelled, "move right." And when he still didn't respond, I just darted between him and another and passed. Seems to me it was an illegal, albeit safe in my opinion, pass. But technically, I was screwed either way if someone really was out to enfoce the rules. So what should I have done. (I was riding a significantly faster clip than the group, so it's not something I could have anticipated and held off on attempting the pass.)

Well that's confusing. Some are and some aren't.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

not true that you were out of the zone by moving left or right off his wheel. you were "staggering" which, while a nice attempt to avoid blatant drafting, isn't quite good enough.

draft zone is 3 bike lengths, front and back. you could drop back 20 feet and still be legal (and still get a draft)

But the draft zone is not simply 3 bike lengths (or 7 meters) long, it's also two meters wide (or one meter on each side of the bike). As long as you don't enter those two meters, you haven't entered the draft zone, regardless of how far back you may be. In many course, especially one's not closed to traffic, there's a good chance you're blocking. But at a race closed to traffic with wide streets, like LA, one could ride side by side without impeding others.

ahh, Wildflower, endless packs of drafters, TNT'ers blocking, and generally alot of people who are clueless about the rules.. what a mess (try starting as a fast female rider in the last wave sometime, that's alot of fun! :) i've raced it 7 times, never ref'ed it.

yes, officially you broke the rule, but there is not much you could have done except WAITED (lord only knows how long) to make your pass on the left WITHOUT crossing the centerline (it makes me crazy to see people cross the centerline). at times we have to just have to do what works, illegal or not, and hope there is no moto around. considering your situation, i doubt an official would have issued you a penalty, and should have dinged the riders ahead for drafting and blocking.

what chaps my ass most about blocking is that there never seems to be a motorcycle around when you need one, huh?!?!

gotta run, time to ride in 105 degree heat!

Sue

you're slipping up :)

That situation sucks but yeah, when someone passes you but doesn't do it fast enough to pull the 7 meters in front you, yes you do have to brake, sit up or something to slow yourself outside of the draft zone. I remember at Shreveport 2 years ago constantly having to get on the brakes during the race to avoid penalties:P But the two guys who i paced with the whole way did more or less what you did and refused to brake and one got hit with 2 penalties the other with 3 and a DQ (it was a messed up crowded course or at least in my wave it was).

Yesterday we had one of our bigger sprint swim with Olympic bike and run races out here with weird drafting rules (super small draft zone) and I had to use the brakes a bunch of times as well which really sucked. Most Every guy I passed got on me and soon we had 5 guys places 3rd-7th trucking along with me in front. Sometimes one of two stronger guys would pass and pull through for a min or so giving me a nice break setting the pace. But the other two guys who were faster swimmers and got caught later in the race would rest for a while in back and then try to pull around but lack the power to pull completely through and/or up the pace and they'd die out right in front of me and the brake tapping was on. Sucks but if you want to stay clean you have to do it.

Once you're passed it's your responsibility to move out of the draft zone no matter how much of a dick the passer is being.