The powermeter story is pretty funn:)

Just be glad you weren't officiating our race out here today. We have, a "6 foot radius" draft zone rule, yes 6FEET! And it made the officials lives hell. Made my ride really frustratring it ended up looking like I was pulling a damn team time trial for most of the 40K containing places 3rd through 7th... Best was one of the penalty numbers that was supposed to be written down for someone in my "pack" got mistaken for the leader's number and they for a short while assessed him a 10min drafting penalty when he pretty much led wire to wire;) I caught 6 people (decent but not super fast swimmer and a smokin T1 thank god) on the bike, making up anywhere from 30s on the bike on them to over three minutes on the bike on one guy who I finally caught maybe 17K or so into the ride (he was 1st out of the water). EVERY person I passed except one came into T2 with me!!! It was totally nuts, I'd come by people as hard as I could and the next thing you know they'd just be sitting on me and we eventually had a draft marshal on us the entire way back but, the damn thing was technically they were 6' back but of course still enjoying a pretty good draft:P Totally sucked and two newer guys who were super swimmers and got caught later, they'd sit on the back for a while then try to pull around but not be able to pull through so I'd have to sit up, even tapping the brakes on two occasions to get the hell out of their zone further packing us up:P Totally sucky situation. And then there was the Panic 45 to 5mph stop and near bike into the back of a nonmoving car that jumped out of the coned lane at the bottom of a huge hill and my Ergomo computer repeatedly vibrating (it was a bumpy bumpy course at points) off my custom mount I was so proud of and dangling down by my front wheel, finally unplugged it and stuffed it down my top.

Anyways, good thing I guess for me at least was that the "pack" smoked themselves keeping up so I never saw anyone again after T2. Ended up trying to run down my roommate for 2nd but settling for 3rd. I

Talking to the head official afterwards for a long time and we were (him included) just shaking our heads at the rules wondering why they even have drafting rules and penalties if they are only going to do a 6' zone. He's a friend of mine and a good official but he just felt like he had his feet and power cut out from under him with this rule set (RD's rules not his). In the end he just ended up throwing out all the penalties as he just couldn't see how he could justify them and also was getting spotty information from his marshals on who was or wasn't drafting. Man that was a brain drain on the bike... Going to write some letters to the RD with suggestions but I'm guessing they'll get ignored. Oh well, gotta try right.

But on the bright side, breakfast at a nearby restaurant while awaiting awards was awesome!

I allways feel like an arse for saying something during a race about blocking but I just don't understand why people need the whole lane to make a pass. I'm just learning to deal with it if I start in a later wave.

I know people don't mean to block it's just they don't know the rules and how much it screws up a person's rhythm when they have to slow down from 25 to 17mph to make a pass.

It only take a few feet to go around someone, I wish there was a way to communicate that to everyone.

jaretj

Agreed. From my limited perspective (slow swimmer/fast biker), blocking is the major issue. I am usually slow enough out of the water that whatever draft train might exist has left the station way before I arrive in T1. Blocking is a safety issue that I would like to see more enforcement of.

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you know my name, look up my number
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Whats your opinion of blocking, 5.10d, vs position, 5.10f? Is this a blocking or position issue?



5.10f Position. Except for reasons of safety and when no advantage is gained, all cyclists shall keep to the right of the prescribed course unless passing.

5.10d. Blocking Cyclists who have established the right of way must not block or obstruct the progress of another participant.

I know when I was doing Donner USAT race last week, we were tearing down the straight hill when I more than once came upon this guy in the left side, was not passing anyone. I would yell on your left and he did nothing. I finally go so mad I passed him on the right, which is illegal, but he forced me to have no choice. I yelled at him that you must stay to the right unless passing. Now, seems to be he could have broken either rule. He was not on the right side, so seems it is a position foul. But, he was also blocking me.

So, marshalls, in my example, which foul and why would you give. Now, since I tried a number of times and he would not move to the right, I assume I would not get a penalty since the only other choice he was giving me was to pass on the right by going over the yellow center line which I felt was worse.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

When I refer to blocking, I am referring to 2 cyclists riding abreast, meaning the guy on the left is either taking too long to pass or is simply clueless and clogging up the road, or person on right isn't dropping back.

I am less concerned with position because just like you (don't tell anyone) I simply blow by an offender on the right.

As to your question, I think the cyclist is committing a position foul up to the point that your progress is impeded, then it is blocking. At least that is how I would interpret it.

I recall a race I did several years ago where we were instructed to ride on the shoulder of this fairly busy road. The shoulder was very wide but it was not swept well and had all sorts of rocks, glass and assorted shit on it. There was a rumble strip to the left of where they wanted us to ride but still a narrow area between the white line and the rumble strip wide enough to ride on, so that is where I rode. A few others also rode there too, however when it came time to pass these folks, no way was I going to go to the left on the busy road so I passed on the right.
How many rules did I break?

Ultimately, if I can learn to swim, I can avoid all this!

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you know my name, look up my number
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as you know h20, i am just a schmoe out marshalling, not a USAT guy.

if i witnessed what you describe i would let you carry on, and give a hit to the other guy for blocking.

Man, seems like you could hit 2 riding abreast with lots of stuff. Drafting since cant stay in a draft zone for more than 15 seconds. Position, since not on the right. Blocking, since cant get through. I guess they all have the same variable time penalty. Bottom line, its unsafe to have anyone riding 2 abreast.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thats what I would do also, based on intent. I tried 3 times to get the guy to move over, but if the marshall only saw me pass on the right, how would one defend one self?

As I think about it more, the best job the USAT officials and RD's as a team can do is to try and educate before the race starts, and point out anything that can be see before the gun goes off. The perfect race is a race where there are NO penalities, because the rules have been followed. It is always my last choice to give someone a penalty.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Interesting thread - I'm enjoying it. I see a lot of situations where I'm passing someone, and then another rider is passing them faster than I am so DURING my pass, the 3rd guy rips between me and the 1st guy I was passing. I don't feel I was blocking at all because I was passing. I've seen others do this also.

2nd, how about a few folks who have passed me and didn't even give me a chance to drop back - they just cut over nearly clipping my front tire.

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What the observations at that race clearly show is that there are more and more racers on course who take the "do your own race" to a new level. Is it the coaches or the general development in society? Probably both.

Being in this mindset it is perfectly clear that it is the others that have to ride in the dirt and that they have to take the bigger risk to go around you in traffic while you are doing "your" race.

It is disrespectful and "unsportsmanlike conduct". I would take them out for that, no technicalities about blocking, not staying to the right and the other little stuff that might come up in the progress.

Race on equipment that is suitable for the course (better/sturdier tires), watch where you are going and then treat fellow competitors like you want to be treated by them (by adhering to the rules). Simple as that.

After all, we are all good sports, aren't we?

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

Any race I have given inputs to the RD. You have have data that says this is not how I do things? :o)

You can talk to Bill on the inputs I gave him at the last TBF race. Most were examples I gave on ST and even Dan said he would have given them penalities. Come work with me in TA on the next TFF race and lets see if we are both on the same page. If I am not healthy, I might be working TA for the TFR on Sunday also. :o)

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

At face value, if the guy passed on your right, while you where passing on the left, then seems like its a position penalty. Not safe at all.

I have had guys do that to me while I am passing, the rip by me on turns on my left, but they go across the center line to do it.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I look at it as this... We stay to the right unless conditions dictate otherwise. In my opinion, riding through gravel and broken glass on a unswept course are conditions that I think are acceptable to move left, especially when there was a narrow band of shoulder to ride in. Basically, nothing more than a judgement call based on the race conditions. I don't think this would qualify as unsportmanlike behavior.

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you know my name, look up my number
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>>It only take a few feet to go around someone, I wish there was a way to communicate that to everyone.<<

I just go by them and tell them nicely that they really need to stay to the right.

Maybe all RDs can mention this very early in the race meeting before people rush out.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I am not aware of any race where I, or you, or 99% of folks could give a penalty.

So, not sure what you are asking.

Only folks I know that can "give" penalities are the Head referee for a USAT race, or the RD at a non USAT race. At best case, some can give these folks inputs.

So, not sure what point you are trying to make.

But again, come help me give inputs to the RD, if needed at TBF.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I hear most RD's state folks must stay the right o pre race instructions. But, do all folks listen? Nope.



dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

[reply]I am not aware of any race where I, or you, or 99% of folks could give a penalty.

So, not sure what you are asking.

Only folks I know that can "give" penalities are the Head referee for a USAT race, or the RD at a non USAT race. At best case, some can give these folks inputs.

So, not sure what point you are trying to make.

But again, come help me give inputs to the RD, if needed at TBF.



Dave[/reply]

I believe the confusion is that above you said
"It is always my last choice to give someone a penalty."

So it sounds like you are a marshall.

At Hvineman being a stronger cyclist & "older" women I've run into the male ego thing where I've come up on a guy who was initially a speck in the distance & passed them & then they speed up & basically won't let you pass. Ultimately their bike split is 20 min slower than yours with their goal "being just to finish" and assume that is what yours is too. I was penalized at Hvineman once by an overzealous official that gave excessive penalities that yr, the only penalty I've gotten since beginng tri in 1985 trying to go around one of these guys for supposedly going across the center line where there wasn't one & I was consciously making a point to avoid just that & right next to the guy. Or where one of the male waves starts after us (like this year) come up pass but then just barely pass & then sit right in front of your wheel so I have to slow down & sit up. Then take offense when I try to pass to get back in my rythm. I stay out of the way of them & the faster one whip on by with no problem whne they being to over take us about 45 miles into it.

It's important at Hvineman with IMH qualifier spots in contention & where anyone can enter. I wish they would remind all the entrants that there are many different "races: going on & to stay to the right & let us go on with our own race.

I also wish they could use the officials or someone to "educate" folks on course. Many aren't aware that they are blocking etc. I've talked to Charlie C & he said they don't like to say anything at the time since the people have a tencency to freak out &/or quit. But it would be helpful to learn at the time "oh so this is what that is" in reality then some imaginery zone on paper.

Barb

I dont waste me time making sure every word is written so a lawyer can approve it. If some want to spend their time taking the half empty approach to try and personally attack others for their kicks, again, I am glad I help them make their day. I think any resonable person already knows the answer, but some on ST, who seem to enjoy attackers others, can take ANYTHING someone writes and go into the mud with it, if thats what they want to do.

I will let folks writings show ones true character.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

>>I will let folks writings show ones true character. <<

Dude, look in the mirror. And get over the "holier than thou" thing. MANY things you write come off sounding maybe like you not thought them to, but when multiple people read the same thing, well then, you're not getting your point across or coming across as less than correct/truthful.

Case in point---in the past day or so, you said something about missing a race "to start your season" (or something similiar). What do you mean by that? You've already done a race or two (or more) this year. Exactly which season are you starting? It's just stuff like that, or your changing of your training time (after zealously trumpeting one thing when the facts were another). Just throwing it out there since you are a stickler for the truth and black/white.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com