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Re: Calling all Coggans [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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DJFaithful wrote:


As far as I can figure, a power meter's strain gauges' measurement of torque is no less a "measurement" than what a scale does to measure the weight of an object. Hang an object from a spring, make notice of how much the spring


Pedantic, but I think those are both indirect. Measuring mass via a balance would be direct measurement. But measuring weight via a spring uses a calibrated correlation to material deflection. Like most power meters measure torque.
Last edited by: trail: Mar 21, 18 14:36
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Re: Calling all Coggans [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i'm not fixated on torque. i'm asking whether riding by a different metric - and either force or torque would work for me - is a worthwhile exercise in training. is it worth pursuing?


It depends.

Metabolic and cardiovascular strain (and hence adaptation) will be (primarily) determined by the (temporally-smoothed) power output, regardless of how it is generated.

Neuromuscular demands (and hence adaptations in muscle contractile function) will be (mostly) dictated by the force and speed with which you pedal.

I developed quadrant analysis (QA) about 15 y ago as a way of visualizing the latter demands. QA was inspired, in part, by Robert's interest in torque vs. cadence plots and "power expansion pathways", but explicitly incorporates the physiological knowledge that significant type II motor unit recruitment seems to (initially) occur only at intensities above FTP. (The other motivation for QA was people's complaints that NP didn't seem to fully capture the stress they experienced during severely "on-off" cycling, e.g., a criterium).

Once dual-sided power meters that offered additional information about pedaling dynamics became available, I developed additional analytical tools, i.e., calculation of maximum effective pedal force (MEPF), gross power released (GPR), gross power absorbed (GPA), and kurtotic index (KI), all of which can be found in WKO4. This seems to be a bit of a deeper dive into cycling biomechanics than what motivated your original question, however.

A description of QA can be found in our book, as well as here (note that both the date on the article and the byline are incorrect):

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/quadrant-analysis/

These sources describe the pedaling metrics unique to WKO4:

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...and-metrics-in-wko4/

https://help.trainingpeaks.com/...ling-metrics-in-WKO4

https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/...daling%20Metrics.pdf

TL, DR answer: specificity, specificity, specificity, specificity, specificity.


thanks. let me read those articles and see what i can glean. i have a suspicion some riders would be well served by moderating their cadences more actively to lessen over-recruitment of type II fibers during exercise, even when there are fairly significant changes in power occasioned by the tactical realities of a race. also, that if that's true, that those athletes tend not to moderate their cadences sufficiently.

but i don't know. it's just a guess. a hunch. i'm exceedingly mentally, informationally, underequipped to extrapolate past that.

i need

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Mar 21, 18 14:39
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Re: Calling all Coggans [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
DJFaithful wrote:


As far as I can figure, a power meter's strain gauges' measurement of torque is no less a "measurement" than what a scale does to measure the weight of an object. Hang an object from a spring, make notice of how much the spring


Pedantic, but I think those are both indirect. Measuring mass via a balance would be direct measurement. But measuring weight via a spring uses a calibrated correlation to material deflection. Like most power meters measure torque.

A beam balance must be calibrated as well. I really see no difference.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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DJFaithful wrote:

A beam balance must be calibrated as well. I really see no difference.

The difference is that with the balance no mathematical relationship between physical quantities is needed. It's comparing a mass to a known mass. Like using a measuring stick is comparing a distance to a known distance. However, like the torque arm formula need to convert a force to a torque. Or a formula to convert a material strain to a force.

This site may help.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
DJFaithful wrote:


A beam balance must be calibrated as well. I really see no difference.


The difference is that with the balance no mathematical relationship between physical quantities is needed. It's comparing a mass to a known mass. Like using a measuring stick is comparing a distance to a known distance. However, like the torque arm formula need to convert a force to a torque. Or a formula to convert a material strain to a force.

This site may help.

Ok, so.....how does one measure power "directly?"
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Re: Calling all Coggans [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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DJFaithful wrote:

Ok, so.....how does one measure power "directly?"

I don't know...torque wouldn't be too hard, but power would be tricky, from a bike.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slower pedaling -> higher force for same power -> GREATER recruitment of type II motor units.

OTOH, faster pedaling -> lower force threshold for recruitment of any given motor unit -> greater recruitment of type II motor units.

IOW, the effects of cadence (at least at the extremes) on motor unit recruitment are more complex than you seem to be assuming.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:

well, you're not producing slowmans. you're producing foot-pounds. and it's not imaginary. it's actual foot-pounds, or newton-meters, or whatever. i can derive this through known values, cadence and power, and i'll know it to plus/minus 1.5 percent or if i can't then my smart trainer or power meter is making a false claim.


...and then you take that same number and just divide by your crank length (a constant for a given setup and session, right?), and you have force...which is what your legs are actually producing/feeling.


Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
Only the Dunning Kruger effect can explain this....
(unless the intent is very different than I suspect)
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Re: Calling all Coggans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In the first place this thread is a great language course for me I'd like to join .. and I'll try to represent/describe a point of view that is hopefully understandable ..

.. by moving we try to match with situations ore events relativ to us and therfore have developed senses for differences in synchronity and balance .. force (ore torque) at a bone is used like with a limiter in each fiber, it stops if a signal shows it’s enough .. many of this is settled by the autonomic nervous system and unconscious to us .. but not the outcome relative to world we can sense and want to influence ..

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Mar 22, 18 6:44
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Re: Calling all Coggans [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
DJFaithful wrote:


Ok, so.....how does one measure power "directly?"


I don't know...torque wouldn't be too hard, but power would be tricky, from a bike.


Is there ANY means of measuring power in ANY system that measures it "directly" (as defined by the article you linked to)? Because if not, all this talk about bike power meters not measuring power directly is just a trivial matter of no consequence.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

thanks. let me read those articles and see what i can glean. i have a suspicion some riders would be well served by moderating their cadences more actively to lessen over-recruitment of type II fibers during exercise, even when there are fairly significant changes in power occasioned by the tactical realities of a race. also, that if that's true, that those athletes tend not to moderate their cadences sufficiently.

but i don't know. it's just a guess. a hunch. i'm exceedingly mentally, informationally, underequipped to extrapolate past that.

i need


Are we witnessing work on FTT - Functional Torque Threshold model ?:)

Froome can be quite a masher during his training ride below avg RPM 66 over 180km, I think all he does is planned and fully realized, he has the best physiological coaches in the world.
https://www.strava.com/.../1360361706/overview


While training at different torque aka Cadence shift eg: slow Cadence low\mid power then switch to high cadence and high power can improve neuromuscular link it would be hard to narrow down the precise torque values without tools like below.

http://www.btsbioengineering.com/products/freeemg/

I think people like Froome they are totally aware of benefits.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So I am lazy and not gonna read 4 pages of this since late to the game.

Torque is a helpful training tool this is why lots of the pro team coaches use it in theory when planng workouts but dont actually use the numbers. This is the reason behind motor pacing. Using this can help train athletes for various racing situations and other stuff. I dont think very useful for triathletes. Road racers, CX , track, and MTB very much. Tommy Danielson has been talking about torque quite a bit lately as well and how you can use racing. So Slowman, yes depending on what you want to use for it is helpful. I know Powerbox from FSA allows one to see torque values so assuming power2max does too.

http://www.americanroadcycling.com/america8/TheBook/Torque.aspx?frm=MenVert
Last edited by: Trimeon: Mar 23, 18 12:56
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Re: Calling all Coggans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
why isn't torque a better measure of fiber recruitment than cadence?


Neither are particular useful for that per se.

Muscle fibre recruitment in dynamic scenarios is much more a function of power than either of torque or cadence.



Slowman wrote:
... it occurred to me to ride - as a thought experiment - according to fiber recruitment during the power phase of the pedal stroke. or as close to fiber recruitment as i could get to it.

cadence is sort of the inverse of that. torque speaks directly that.


While pedal force varies a lot during a pedal stroke and pedal velocity doesn't, peak and average torque (for steady state riding) are still pretty much related by a reasonably fixed factor.

Metabolically, knowing your torque or cadence is not particularly helpful, while knowing power most definitely is.
For neuromuscular insight then Quadrant Analysis is your friend.


In any case, cadence and torque are not really independently controllable variables at our disposal* but we can control our power output.

The things we can control:
- effort level (i.e. power)
- gear choice

Cadence and torque are then simply outcomes of those choices and the resistance forces acting against us at the time.

Far better to focus on effort level and choose a gear appropriate for the situation.


* except perhaps for the artificial scenario of cycling on an ergometer set to maintain a fixed work rate irrespective of what the rider does.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Last edited by: AlexS: Mar 23, 18 19:53
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Re: Calling all Coggans [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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Torque is a red herring.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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AlexS wrote:
Metabolically, knowing your torque or cadence is not particularly helpful, while knowing power most definitely is ... Far better to focus on effort level and choose a gear appropriate for the situation.

it may well be that riding according to torque, as a thought experiment during a training session, is useless and yields nothing of value. but your two statements above seem to me to contradict each other. you cannot "choose a gear appropriate for the situation" without some at least unconscious if not conscious consideration given to cadence. or torque. depending on what prompts the choice.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Calling all Coggans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Unfolding force with the active fibers is taxable, relaxing the passive is not so taxable, general muscle tension depends on load and exhaustion level (somehow) .. unfolding force at different speeds of moving ore rhythms (of the bones) need a (still) capable nervous system and (recalibrated) senses for all this situations (with very different loads and after hours) ..

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Mar 23, 18 21:51
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Re: Calling all Coggans [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
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i am suprised we are 90 posts into this thread and oysemetirc rings havent been metioned.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Different shaped chainrings support preferences (ore reduce weaknesses), they don't change principles edit: the basics ..

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Mar 24, 18 14:14
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Re: Calling all Coggans [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
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maybe I have completely missed the boat on this discussion but to me torque and cadence is similar in principle to low/ force high rep vs high force/ low rep. In other words at the same power, cadence is a surrogate measure for torque since they are inversely related and linearly proportional. So assuming you can maintain the same power then cadence tells you what the torque is in a relative way. So correct me if I am wrong, (and I am sure the flame throwers are being loaded up as I type this) but as RChung says torque is a red herring, and adds no added information that you do not already have if you have a power meter and watch cadence and power as they relate to each other.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
Torque is a red herring.

did you see that you're quoted in another thread today saying, "That's why focusing on cadence to the exclusion of these other choices is a red herring.”?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Calling all Coggans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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RChung is a red herring.
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Re: Calling all Coggans [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
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You are right with the physical model ..



.. that can describe/caclulate an output of a system.

My thoughts are related to the articulated bio mechanic chemical driven nervous activated senses monitored inputs to ride a bike (fast) ..

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Mar 24, 18 14:05
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Re: Calling all Coggans [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
RChung is a red herring.

i'm sorry. can you repeat that? i'm hard of herring.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Calling all Coggans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Salmon'll be along any minute to explain.

In the meantime, a short version is that I don't think there's a simple way to turbot-charge your cycling.
Last edited by: RChung: Mar 24, 18 12:15
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Re: Calling all Coggans [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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.. the pygmy seahorse knows the way best (it can move with max 0,01 mls/h) ..

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
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