PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals

Oct 23, 17 11:57

Post #1 of 36 (4325 views)

While L/R power meters and VERY nice and there's lots of options, they are also way out of my signing limit. I also don't want to have to deal with Bottom brackets changes, chainrings etc. My bike has an the new Ultegra cranks and want to keep that setup

I wanted to see what was ST opinion regarding Left only and the different products available. My original idea was 4iiii or Stages, and then swapping the left crank to my other bike (also Shimano cranks). While this is pretty straightforward, I just thought that maybe the new Garmin pedals on a left only configuration may be worth it. Upgradeability to L/R is a factor but not the main one. Between Stages and Garmin the prices are similar at $575/$600, 4iiii does come in a little cheaper.

faveros are out, they are too ugly sorry.

so, am I missing something?

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 12:04

Post #2 of 36 (4307 views)

I would add the Powertap P1S pedals to your list, which is what I use. They're single sided (comes with a dummy pedal for the other side) and upgradeable to double sided. Bike Tires Direct has them for $700, and you get $70 in credit towards your next order.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 12:05

Post #3 of 36 (4303 views)

I'm currently using Stages but I've had Powertap P1s pedals and Garmin Vector 2s.

The reason I'm using Stages over pedal based power meter is I can use whatever pedal I like. I just like the feel of clipping/unclipping in Shimano and dislike the Look type pedal. Because Shimano have locked down their design rights the Vectors and Powertap pedals use a Look configuration.

The plus of the pedals is I was able to even put them on my 29er and ride all but technical trail with them as they are easy to swap between bikes.

I will sometimes use mountain bike pedals on my road bike though because the shoes allows me to get the cleat more rearwards and some races have awkward transitions where having shoes you can run in is a benefit (not pro enough to leave them on the bike yet). Being able to use what shoe/pedal configuration you want gives you more options.

They are all much the same numbers wise. Never had any problem with any of them.

As for left/right comparisons... in my mind, who cares? Everyone has imbalances and even if you know about it what are you really going to do to correct it?

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 12:12

Post #4 of 36 (4294 views)

I would get the Garmin Vector 3s as a slam dunk for your criteria. I have read enough complaints here about the Stages that I would stay away. Given how close the prices are and the future design for upgrade to L&R, I like the Vector 3s the most. It is the latest shiny object.

If you want to go conservative, then the PowerTap P1s is the safest bet. It is long proven and also upgraded to dual-sided power.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [InvictaScoop] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 12:13

Post #5 of 36 (4289 views)

InvictaScoop wrote:

I'm currently using Stages but I've had Powertap P1s pedals and Garmin Vector 2s.

The reason I'm using Stages over pedal based power meter is I can use whatever pedal I like. I just like the feel of clipping/unclipping in Shimano and dislike the Look type pedal. Because Shimano have locked down their design rights the Vectors and Powertap pedals use a Look configuration.

The plus of the pedals is I was able to even put them on my 29er and ride all but technical trail with them as they are easy to swap between bikes.

I will sometimes use mountain bike pedals on my road bike though because the shoes allows me to get the cleat more rearwards and some races have awkward transitions where having shoes you can run in is a benefit (not pro enough to leave them on the bike yet). Being able to use what shoe/pedal configuration you want gives you more options.

They are all much the same numbers wise. Never had any problem with any of them.

As for left/right comparisons... in my mind, who cares? Everyone has imbalances and even if you know about it what are you really going to do to correct it?

Thanks, useful information there. Currently using shimano and the thought of replacing cleats and trying to mimic their current position gives me nights sweats.

I also agree with you regarding L/R. Even if my imbalance increases doing Vo2max efforts, who cares? at that level I am just trying to throw down power (albeit not much) and I do not care what leg is producing it.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 12:15

Post #6 of 36 (4285 views)

Is there a reason you are excluding hubs? A new G3 is in that price range.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 12:37

Post #7 of 36 (4232 views)

Tom_hampton wrote:

Is there a reason you are excluding hubs? A new G3 is in that price range.

Hubs is not something I had in mind. I'm not overly familiar with them, but I guess it would limit the options regarding what wheel to use for training vs racing?

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 12:47

Post #8 of 36 (4213 views)

Tom_hampton wrote:

Is there a reason you are excluding hubs? A new G3 is in that price range.

The reason I didn't go for a hub was getting a wheel respoked seemed like an effort too far. Plus I use a different wheel on the trainer than I do on the road. Then if you have specific race wheels that's 3 hubs you need.

OPs situation might be different.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 12:51

Post #9 of 36 (4204 views)

I'd also look into the Pioneer single leg option. They have the most accurate of the single leg options and its easy to upgrade to dual leg later on.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [seashore67] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 13:01

Post #10 of 36 (4189 views)

seashore67 wrote:

I'd also look into the Pioneer single leg option. They have the most accurate of the single leg options and its easy to upgrade to dual leg later on.

thanks, forgot about them!

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 13:49

Post #11 of 36 (4113 views)

4iiii Precision

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 14:27

Post #12 of 36 (4069 views)

Personally in your situation I'd go hub and get a deepish rim and use it as my training, racing and turbo wheel (I'd get an aluminium brake track to make life easier). I wouldn't go for a single sided power meter because in my opinion no data is better than bad data. I often do threshold repeats on one day where my power balance is 43-57 and on another day where they were 48-52. That would make one of those wrong by 30 watts. Being out by 30 watts on a threshold effort would completely screw with my head ("why can't I hold 20 watts below threshold for 20 minutes" when actually I'm 10 watts over threshold) That sort of difference in my balance from frequently occurs day to day. Of course, if your power balance stays pretty even the whole time then yup, a single sided power meter could work for you, but personally I'd prefer to have a hub based system that I know is accurately measuring my power.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 14:33

Post #13 of 36 (4060 views)

UpandDown wrote:

Tom_hampton wrote:

Is there a reason you are excluding hubs? A new G3 is in that price range.

Hubs is not something I had in mind. I'm not overly familiar with them, but I guess it would limit the options regarding what wheel to use for training vs racing?

Hmmm....I use the same wheel for training and racing. I added a disc cover for race season. Now that the season is over, I'm not sure I'll even take it off, because I don't notice it at all.

Granted I built my own wheel around the hub. I tend to forget not everyone does their own wrenching (esp. wheel-building).

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [rmt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 14:37

Post #14 of 36 (4056 views)

rmt wrote:

. Of course, if your power balance stays pretty even the whole time then yup, a single sided power meter could work for you, but personally I'd prefer to have a hub based system that I know is accurately measuring my power.

Of course...the only way to know that sort of thing is to already have a dual-sided power meter...and have lots of experience with it in various conditions. In which case, his question would have a lot less meaning.... :-)

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 14:50

Post #15 of 36 (4039 views)

UpandDown wrote:

While L/R power meters and VERY nice and there's lots of options, they are also way out of my signing limit. I also don't want to have to deal with Bottom brackets changes, chainrings etc. My bike has an the new Ultegra cranks and want to keep that setup

I wanted to see what was ST opinion regarding Left only and the different products available. My original idea was 4iiii or Stages, and then swapping the left crank to my other bike (also Shimano cranks). While this is pretty straightforward, I just thought that maybe the new Garmin pedals on a left only configuration may be worth it. Upgradeability to L/R is a factor but not the main one. Between Stages and Garmin the prices are similar at $575/$600, 4iiii does come in a little cheaper.

faveros are out, they are too ugly sorry.

so, am I missing something?

How about stretching to $800 for Faveros dual power pedals ?

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...epth-review.html/amp

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 14:52

Post #16 of 36 (4036 views)

That was why I chose the word could carefully in the sentence you've quoted! I obviously agree completely, I was just trying to avoid the whole single sided vs others debate as much as possible!

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [rmt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 15:06

Post #17 of 36 (4018 views)

rmt wrote:

That was why I chose the word could carefully in the sentence you've quoted! I obviously agree completely, I was just trying to avoid the whole single sided vs others debate as much as possible!

so far we've been able to stay away from that debate!, that while important, is not really what I am after.

this were my assumptions and experience working with power:

If I am training to a number, I really don't care where the number is coming from (left or right leg).
sub-threshold effort are those that I am concerned about as they are more repeateable, and more important controllable, in race or long ride situations. I am not that good to be able to control a full on effort. It may be 350 or 400 but I can can;t call them on demand. however a 200/230 steady state to me is more important, as those are controllable I assume my L/R imbalance should not matter. Some days the imbalance may be higher, but also some day I may not be able to achieve my full FTP. I am not THAT good to care.
I have been using virtual power via TR and this past summer I had a loaner bike with stages, I could not tell you witch one was better. If anything virtual power was more stable. I am looking to take out on the road though

and I opened the can of warms...

so so far the pedals are more appealing, but realistically a 4iiii system could work just as well and quite a bit cheaper.

Last edited by: UpandDown: Oct 23, 17 15:09

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 15:21

Post #18 of 36 (4006 views)

I'll avoid shaking the can of worms then - for me the data wouldn't work, but I'm not you and it's not my money! Do think about whether your usage may change in the future, and whether, if you've started improving the power numbers, you'll be concerned about whether it's a real improvement or just a change in balance.

I would definitely go hub though (in fact I did when I was in your position). I used a hub with a shallow rim because it was all I could afford (bought second hand) and put a cover on for races for several years before deciding to get a set of pedals so I could use a disc wheel. I should add that I'm a huge fan of Stages because if it wasn't for them coming into the market at a significantly lower price point (at the time) we'd be paying far more for all power meters than we currently are!!

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 17:11

Post #19 of 36 (3957 views)

I will say that I currently have on 3 different bikes, Stages, Vectors (Dual leg), and a Quarq. All 3 provide me with what I believe to be the valuable data, how much power am I putting out as a complete body unit. When I view my rides in TP from my Vectors, I hide the view from the secondary side. All I care about is my total power output. The Stages seems to have a more jagged file, but all 3 read within 3%. Close enough for me.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 17:32

Post #20 of 36 (3931 views)

I would caution you to rethink your perspective on L/R balance. I've been riding with Vector pedals for a few years now, and I keep an eye on L/R balance during rides. Not because it's something I attempt to do anything about but I do like to understand under which conditions imbalances present themselves. I will tell you that, for me at least, I am *more* imbalanced at low power, and more imbalanced as I fatigue during a ride. Others may be different, but knowing what I know now about when I'm balanced/imbalanced, I would not be comfortable using left-side power doubled as a surrogate for total power. It's just not repeatable enough to be a reliable training metric.

Now, I understand that it's your money and not mine and if you cannot afford a PM that has two-sided power at the moment I would at least STRONGLY urge you to buy one that you can later upgrade to two-sided power (and make that upgrade a priority). Just my $0.02. My vote would be for the Vector 3s.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 18:37

Post #21 of 36 (3883 views)

Funny, I happened to be riding my TT bike for the first time in months which has a pwoermeter with L/R balance and when looking at my data I was again amazed what a useless metric that is. My L/R ratio is always 48~52 / 52~48 and most of the time 50/50. When it's not 50/50 it's usually just measurement error. I've never seen anything ever that shows value in measuring left / right balance - high or low power, high or low cadence, it's always consistent. I'd see absolutely no problem with a left side only powermeter.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 18:46

Post #22 of 36 (3871 views)

jkatsoudas wrote:

at least STRONGLY urge you to buy one that you can later upgrade to two-sided power (and make that upgrade a priority). Just my $0.02. My vote would be for the Vector 3s.

Thanks for the input, great inside and very good valid points.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [Benv] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 19:06

Post #23 of 36 (3854 views)

I think you're missing the point regarding the reason some people don't see the value in a power meter that measures 1 leg only and doubles it - it has nothing to do with L/R balance being a useful metric, it has to do with the fact that in the case you quoted the power numbers from a single sided meter will be up to 4% wrong.

I would agree that L/R balance is currently a pretty useless metric, that doesn't lead to a single sided power meter being accurate though. If you already know you L/R balance you will have a fair idea of how accurate it will be for you, and can make a decision about whether you're happy with that degree of accuracy. In your example you may be quite happy at 4% accuracy and therefore, for you, a single sided power meter is fine. For me a single sided power meter could be out by 10%, and I'm not happy with that accuracy. If you don't know your personal balance, then you are guessing at how accurate the numbers will be, at which point maybe HR or RPE is a better metric to be using.

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 19:13

Post #24 of 36 (3842 views)

Excel sports has pioneer ultegra 6800 single sided for about $400 right now

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Re: PM on a budget. Stages vs Left only Garmin Pedals [UpandDown] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 17 19:16

Post #25 of 36 (3838 views)

UpandDown wrote:

Between Stages and Garmin the prices are similar at $575/$600, 4iiii does come in a little cheaper.

There's some mention in percentages in this thread so I'll pile on that topic...4iiii at $399 is ~35% less expensive :)

At the Slowtwitch Coaching Power Clinic at Interbike this year pretty much the entire room of coaches were impressed the most with 4iiii. They've been on Bora-Hansgroe team for 2 full years, they invented ANT+, they have powermeters on those arm cranks that the America's Cup sailors have to hammer on to...do what exactly? trim the "sail" (which now seems to be a rigid wing)..anyway my point is: waterproof, durable, as accurate as pretty much all the other players save maybe SRM who still seems to be the gold standard.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

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